Mike: Kathy I want to start out our discussion today about struggling women with a passage from First Timothy 5:6, "She who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead, even while she lives." Now, I know that you and Steve have been reaching out to men and couples and certainly wives. But you also work with women who struggle with sexual sin. Tell us a little bit about that.  

Kathy: It's always been a man's problem, and now we're seeing that it's not just a man's problem, but women struggle quite a bit. We did a survey on our website, and we had 500 women respond to that survey which really shocked us. But what was more shocking, was what women are actually dealing with and what they're struggling with. The level of sexual addiction among women was very shocking.  

Mike: I do want to share just a few of these statistics and I don't want to bore listeners too much with statistics, but they really are shocking. These 500 women that responded to the survey were self professing Christian women, correct?  

Kathy: Yes, they were all Christian women.  

Mike: And that's what really makes these statistics, I think, more shocking. 44% of those 500 women admitted to be viewing adult movies alone. 53% admitted to occasionally viewing magazines or internet pornography and 46% reading pornographic stories. 90% of these women acknowledged dealing with masturbation either now or previously in their life. 31% were having online sexual conversations or had at some point. 36% were involved in promiscuity in the form of fornication with other singles. Those are pretty high statistics for women who are professing to be Christian.  

Kathy: Right.

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Mike: Do you think that this is kind of the silent cry going on of the church?  

Kathy: I really do believe this is something that has been boiling beneath the surface in women, not all women, but a lot of women that have already kind of succumbed to the culture. They have succumbed to a lot of other worldly things in their lives, so this is not a huge leap from where they're at.  

Mike: Why are women engaging in this type of behavior?  

Kathy: Well, I think it's a mixed bag. I can't really nail it down to one thing in particular, but I can take a shot at a lot of reasons. I know in my life, at one point when I was young, got involved in pornography because of my husband. You know, Steve introduced me to pornography, and it was our way of trying to hold together a very shaky marriage. And it was what he wanted, and I was more than willing to comply, so I got involved in pornography and saw things I wish I would have never seen. Other women are curious. Single women, they get involved for romantic reasons. They have this romantic fantasy of meeting Prince Charming, so they read novels, or they watch movies and they just keep this kind of a lustful view of life.  

Mike: Well let's talk about some of the specific areas that women are getting involved in, and you already touched on one, and that's the viewing of adult entertainment. Let's talk briefly about online pornography. I know from reading your book, that many women get involved in that, if not because of their husbands, very often just because they're lonely.  

Kathy: Yeah, that's a big motivator, especially if you have a computer in your house and you have access to the internet, you're bored, and you're lonely and you feel just this emptiness then pornography can kind of fill that hole. The thing about pornography is, it’s so addictive, so a young woman or middle-aged woman or a widow may sit in there and she's coming across this stuff, it is very very difficult for her then to detach herself when she has that secret little world. And that's the power of addiction: it's secret. It's powerful.  

Mike: You know, and the sad part of that is that at whatever level of naivete or innocence that woman started out with, as that progresses what's really happening in her inside world, is she's being corrupted with evil. And Satan, the evil one, is destroying whatever godly beauty may have been established in her life at one point.  

Kathy: Yeah. So often people don't even realize how much pornography has affected and warped their minds: the way that they think and the way they view life and people. They think that they have it confined, but they don't realize, and they will find out, at some point in life you will wake up to the reality that this thing has so corrupted them.  

Mike: That's true in the next area that we want to talk about, which is cyber-sex. Now what's going on with a woman who's getting involved with cyber-sex?  

Kathy: Well, I think it starts probably with chat rooms. You know, you get into this fantastical world and you can be anybody you want to. This whole cyber-world, cyber-sex, webcam thing is just, to me, it's a level up from pornography. Now, you can actually, physically become the porn star. You know and throwing your body out there for who knows who.  

Mike: I know one of the comments that I read in your book from the women, is that one of the things they loved about the chat rooms, is they loved the feeling that these men were really desperate for them.  

Kathy: Yes. Yes, and the women are desperate for the men to be desperate for them. That's the insanity of it. Women have this dynamic of wanting to be worshiped and men are all too willing to worship. So, you've got this thing going on between male and female, and a lot of times between two women or even two men. You know, there's just this desperation. Each party is desperate for something.  

Mike: They're feeding off of each other?  

Kathy: They are, they very much are.  

Mike: I think that women are more inclined to want to get involved in these fantasy relationships.  

Kathy: Right, and it really does elevate you to just, enormous ego boosting. It's very, very ego-satisfying.  

Mike: And the whole thing is a lie. And you know, as you were saying that, I thought, "well of course, that is what the enemy is doing." He is the father of lies. He is the father of deception. So, this is his world, and these are his tools.  

Kathy: Yeah, and he's got plenty of instruments in his hands to play with. It's sad to me; it's heartbreaking to me; how many young people, and it's not limited to young people but it's mostly young people, who are just living to just have fun right now. But some day, they are going to have to pay up. And the price is enormously high.  

Mike: I hear the passion in your voice, and I know that's why you and Steve have written Create in Me a Pure Heart.

When a Christian parent finds out that their child has been looking at pornography, they are often thrown into a whirlwind of thoughts and emotions. Where did we go wrong? Why would my child do such a thing? How will we ever recover from this? If the Lord has allowed you as a parent to discover your child viewing porn, don’t despair.

There are clear answers to your questions, and there is a path forward. There are basic spiritual principles that will help you find the right mindset to guide your child into victory in the battle for sexual purity.

In this week’s episode, we wrap up our series on The Message of the Cross. Jesus taught that anyone who would save his life must first lose it, and He demonstrated this by laying His own life down at Calvary.

But today, the gospel being preached looks very different, promising life to everyone without requiring them to follow Jesus’ example. This false gospel wants the resurrection, but no Cross. So, many in the church are unaware of what it really means to follow Jesus example. They are still the master of their own lives and bear no resemblance to Christ.

Mike: Steve, today we want to deal with a question that came from an individual that has a history of sexual sin. Their question really revolves around finding a spouse after being involved in sexual sin. How does one go about finding a spouse?  

Steve: Well, there's a couple of different things this guy should consider. You know, first of all, the importance of repentance. When you are living in a lifestyle of repentance, it allows the Lord to go to work on restoring your innocence. And that's absolutely vital for a guy like this, because guys that have been in sin, they're single, and then all of a sudden want to get their life together and want to get married and all that. In their mind, they're going straight from this single life filled with perversion into married life. And they don't understand that their interior world needs to go through a complete upheaval, a complete changeover.  

Mike: They have been just, completely corrupted inside if they've been involved in sexual sin.  

Steve: Right, and they tend to think, "Well, I'll just get married." But they don't understand that they'll bring that corruption into the marriage. So, the first thing he has to do is to just let God do His work transforming him inside as a person.  

Mike: Ok Steve, so after this individual has begun to allow the Lord to do a work in his inside world, is there anything else that you would share with him that would be of a benefit to him?  

Steve: Well, one of the things that really stands out to me about his question is, "How does one find a spouse?" I really want to address that for a second, because if you're walking with the Lord and you're in His will, you don't have to be concerned about finding a spouse. God is going to do it for you. If you are in His will, He is going to bring the right person into your life, assuming of course it's His will. So, I really want to stress this because, there are so many Christians out there that are trying to take it into their own hands. You know, going through Christian dating services and singles groups just for the purpose of finding a spouse. And all that tends to do is to get them into relationships that are not God-ordained. It's so much better to just really pray about it and put it into God's hands and trust Him with the whole situation and then just get on with his life with God. And I have seen it happen so many times. When a guy is willing to do that, the Lord brings Miss Perfect into his life. He could have never found this girl himself, by his own efforts. But by allowing the Lord to do it, he ends up with the girl that he's meant to have.

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Mike: We're so prone, particularly in America today, to try to take control of things ourselves. And this is just another one of those areas where we just don't seem to be wanting to trust God to have control over our lives.  

Steve: Yeah, well it kind of touches on a larger issue which is: people say they put their trust in God, but do they really? This is an enormous decision for a person. You're going to live with the consequences of it for the rest of your life. And we say we trust the Lord, but yet even with monumental decisions like this, we immediately reveal the truth. The fact is, most people trust themselves and not the Lord.  

Mike: We see so many examples in Scripture of the consequences, the very profound consequences sometimes, of not trusting the Lord and doing things, maybe not even seemingly evil things, but just going our own way in our own will. And certainly, the Scripture says, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and then all these things will be added unto you."  

Steve: Yeah, that's right.  

Mike: So good advice and hopefully that will be an encouragement and hopefully some wise direction to those out there who may be seeking a spouse.

The Bible says, “The Message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.” Could it be that multitudes of professing Christians are trapped in sexual sin because they have rejected The Message of the Cross, and thus have been denied its power?

Today we continue to discuss The Message of the Cross, and why it is so important to realize the depth of our sinful condition before a holy God. Without it, we are devoid of strength to turn from our sins, strangers to the true power of God.

Jesus said, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.” This is The Message of The Cross and, it stands against our culture which seeks what it wants, when it wants, how it wants.

Anyone who wants to follow Jesus must be willing to go through the painful process of dying to this self-centered mindset. But amazingly, as we surrender to the way of the Cross we are deeply transformed. Today we look at the message of the Cross, and how it demands the death of self-lives.

Mike: Steve, we want to continue a discussion we began last week stemming from your book, Standing Firm Through the Great Apostasy, on the subject The Message of the Cross. Now, in our previous interview, we talked a little bit about what happened on Calvary, the horror of that event, what the Father went through and what Jesus went through. We also talked about the relationship between Jesus and His disciples. Specifically, we discussed the difference of heart response between the eleven disciples and that of Judas. Today, we want to dig a little bit deeper into what exactly the Message of the Cross is. You have a perspective on that stemming from what Jesus actually said in the Gospels, correct?  

Steve: Well, what happened was that Jesus started warning the disciples that he was going to be arrested and crucified. You see that in Luke 9 and also in Matthew 16. It's actually in all four gospels, the only teaching that's in all four gospels. The words He said are extremely important to the Christian. He said, "If anyone wishes to come after Me..." Now that sums up everyone who calls themselves a Christian. There are three things he must do, Jesus says, "he must deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me.  

Mike: Well Steve, let's take a look at those three statements in the verse. Let's start with denying himself. Now, what does that really mean, to deny yourself?  

Steve: Well we have to understand that, first of all, in the sight of a holy God, we are criminals. So, to come into Christianity requires repentance. That is a message rarely heard anymore. Today we hear something more along the lines of, "accept Jesus to be your Savior," or, "trust Jesus," kind of, nice little terms. But biblical repentance means something far different. It means a complete 180, a complete change of direction. You know, you're going through life doing your own thing, never mind the big outward sins, but just doing your own thing as a rebel. Doing a 180 means that you stop that. You repent and you turn back towards God and He becomes the Boss in your life. But the problem is that you have a mountain of crimes in your life that you are culpable for.  

Mike: Steve, it seems that so many in the church, and we can include ourselves at some point in our lives, compare themselves to others and we can always see people worse off than us. And the problem is, we actually end up thinking we're pretty good.  

Steve: That's the reality. We don't see the depravity of our nature the way we should. We don't see how bad we have been. We don't see our little acts of selfishness, our pride, our resentments, our envies, the petty little things that we've done. We don't see our gossiping, backbiting, anger and the hatred that's in our heart towards certain people. We don’t see the self-righteousness. We don't see that all those things that seem so petty and minor to us that stand out as enormous crimes before a holy and pure God. So, when you come into Christianity, there has to be a repentance of what you have been, of who you have been as a person. But most people kind of just come into the church thinking they're doing God some great favor by attending church on Sundays or by not partying on the weekends.  

Mike: You used two scenarios in your book, Steve, that I felt really helped to bring out how we just don't see ourselves rightly.  

Steve: Scenario one is a guy named James. He comes and stands before God, and the devil is his accuser. The devil is the prosecutor who’s telling God all the bad things that James has done. Then Jesus steps in and says, "Now wait a minute, I'm going to take his sin upon myself and he can be made free. After all, James is a pretty good guy. He's not that bad, so I'm going to take it upon myself." Here, Jesus acts as not only the defense attorney, defending James as he is wrongfully attacked by the devil, but also offers to take the sentence upon himself. And the Father, who is the Judge in this picture, says, "OK, case dismissed. James is free to go."  

Mike: You know, when I first read that, I thought that’s kind of how it is, right?  

Steve: Yeah, and you know where we get that at is Revelation 12:10 where Satan is called the accuser of the brethren. But Satan is never called the accuser of sinners. Satan doesn't accuse sinners, he leads them down the path of self-justification, of rationalizing their sin, and blame-shifting.  

Mike: There's something missing in the story of James, and I don't think people, like me when I first read it, aren't going to pick up on until the second scenario.  

Steve: That second scenario brings it out. There's William in the same setting, standing in the criminal docket of the high court. He's charged with treason against God's Kingdom, just as James was. But here, it's not the devil who is William's accuser but the Holy Spirit, Scripture, his own conscience, and a long line of witnesses who testify about the many things that they had seen in William's life. But William's reaction is the difference. William steps forward and says to the judge, "Your honor, not the half of my crimes against you have been told. I am guilty as charged and I deserve the full penalty of the law. All I can do is promise you that I will change my life and ask for mercy.” You see, his attitude is one of repentance. James' attitude was one of wanting to get something from God without it costing him anything.  

Mike: As you share that, I look back on my own early experience having heard the Gospel. Like what you share in the book, I had kind of a general sense that all of us are sinners, and that I didn't want to go to Hell. And I wanted from God a get-out-of-Hell free card, for lack of a better term. So, I started what I thought was a Christian life with no other gratitude than for this free get-out-of-Hell card. And it took years before I really got a sight of how guilty I was before God.  

Steve: But you did get that site, and I saw you do it. But you know, Charles Spurgeon really brought this out well. He said, "The attitude a lot of people have is like the thief who stands before the judge. He's not looking to quit his thieving ways. He's not looking to have a change of heart. He's looking for mercy just so he doesn't have to pay the consequences and go to prison. And so, he's begging for mercy not because he has any intention of becoming a different man, a good citizen, or anything like that. He just doesn't want to pay the consequences." And that's the attitude of many people who come into Christianity. That's the exact same attitude they have. They're not looking to change, not looking to let God rule and reign over their hearts. They just want to escape Hell for free, like you said.  

‍Mike: Now, relate this back to what we're talking about here. What does it mean to deny self?  

Steve: Mike, it really boils down to your perspective of yourself. The truth is that 99.9% of human beings think of themselves as good people. There was a study done in a prison for the criminally insane. They did a survey and one of the questions they asked was, "Do you consider yourself a good person? And of those several hundred inmates, 100%, every single one of them, responded yes. Everyone thinks they are a good person who deserves Heaven. And that fundamental attitude towards yourself has to be overthrown. You have to see yourself as a guilty sinner, a criminal in the sight of a holy God. Because, until you see that and get that, you won't really experience true repentance and Jesus Christ cannot take his place on the throne of your heart because you're still on the throne of your heart. You're in control of your life.  

Mike: And I want to make this point: that can be true, even though you claim to believe in Jesus.  

Steve: James said the Devils believe and tremble. This is the tricky thing, the subtle thing about faith. When you believe in someone, you believe in them. Saying, “I believe in you Lord,” means so much more than superficial head-knowledge. Maybe you've kind of acknowledged that there was a Jesus Christ who lived. You believe what the Bible says is true and all that. But if you really believe that the Bible is true, it will show in your life, because a person who transfers their trust from themselves to Christ will have a revolution in their life. And then, before long, the evidence of that changed life comes forth very loud and clear.  

Mike: But as you said, that demands repentance, and in order to have repentance, you have to be willing to acknowledge what Jesus has said is true about you. Why is it so hard for unconverted churchgoers to face the truth of themselves?  

Steve: Because they don't want to acknowledge that there's something wrong with them. You know, it is just inherent in human beings. All of us are this way. We hate to say we're wrong. We feel like our character is being impugned by saying that we're not good people. Everyone wants to think of themselves as a good person, deserving Heaven. But the reality is that if a person thinks that they're good, and that they deserve Heaven, then they don't need a Savior and therefore they won't have one.

Most church leaders today would condemn pornography use as wrong, but are they also warning their churches about entertainment? And they would show great concern if a church member spent their time and money pursuing drugs and sex, but what if they were just obsessed with being happy?

In this episode we look at the spiritual danger of spending your life pursuing pleasure. Our 30 plus years of ministry, have revealed that the pursuit of pleasure, comfort and happiness leads many men into sexual sin. But we’ve also seen that when the lust for pleasure is overcome, sexual sin’s hold will be broken.

You may have read Psalm 54:7 before: “For he has delivered me from every trouble, and my eye has looked in triumph on my enemies.” You might look at your life and wonder why this hasn’t happened. Our culture today has been nurtured on the instantaneous. Seemingly everything is “on demand” and many Christians carry this mindset over into their spiritual battles. But even God declared that victory wasn’t going to be instant and would, in fact, be detrimental if He did it that way!

Before Joshua led God’s people over the Jordan and into enemy territory, the Lord gave the people His battle strategy. In Exodus 23:29-30, we read, “I will not drive them out before you in a single year, that the land may not become desolate and the beasts of the field become too numerous for you. I will drive them out before you little by little, until you become fruitful and take possession of the land.”

The conquest of Canaan was designed by God to be fought over a long period of time and against many enemies. The physical enemies in Joshua’s day have been replaced by a many-headed beast known as “the flesh.” The physical battle ground of Canaan has been transferred to the realm of our heart. And we wield spiritual weapons, not physical. And this war is not over in a single day, as it states in Joshua 11:18, “Joshua waged war a long time with all these kings.”

A key tactic to victory is not how fast we sprint into the fray, but how we walk. In this episode, Biblical Counselor Luke Imperato tells us how to biblically wage war through what Paul calls, “walking in the Spirit.” He describes what that looks like, our attitude as we go forward, and also gives us realistic goals in when victory will be achieved.

The Apostle Paul said that the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, but the mind set on the flesh is death. Sexual sin is not a disease; it is the fruit of a mind set on the flesh.

But there is hope, because Paul gave us a solution: "If, by The Spirit, you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." But how do we actually do this? In this episode we'll look at what it really means to set our minds on the Spirit so that our heart and lives will change.

Steve Gallagher’s book, "Standing Firm Through the Great Apostasy", paints a startling picture of the state of the American Church. In this interview, he discusses the message of the Cross and the different ways people respond to it.  

Mike: I want to just start off by asking you Steve, what your purpose was in writing this book?  

Steve: The reason this book came about was because, a few years ago, I was invited to be a keynote speaker at a biblical counseling conference. I was told that the theme of the conference was going to be, 'The Narrow Way.' And as I began studying that theme, what began to emerge was a very disturbing and frightening picture. More so than I had anticipated going into this. As I started studying, first of all what the Word of God clearly says, and secondly, what the writers of yesteryear wrote about these subjects, I realized that the reality is that many, many, many people who name the name of Christ really have never been converted. I started to see that unless something changes in their lives, they're headed into eternal damnation and that's what was so upsetting to me.  

Mike: Well Steve I know that part of the motivation of your writing this book was that there would be a wakeup call for Christians, that they would evaluate what they have, whether it's a genuine faith, a real saving faith. In the book, you're really looking at the core of Christianity: The Message of the Cross of Christ. Give us a picture, if you will, of what happened at the Cross.  

Steve: Mike, I think one of the reasons people are not more effected in their Christianity is that the Cross isn't very real to them. The reality is, we can hardly describe it in terms that befit it. It was a horrible thing, the physical abuse that He took was just terrible. It was barbaric. But there was something much deeper than that. The thing that struck horror in His heart in the garden was that, the Innocent One, the One who was pure was going to, somehow, take 6000 years of sin and crime and every despicable thing imaginable that has ever happened packaged into one bitter cup that He was forced to drink. What He recoiled at in the garden was the reality of taking that filth into His being. Actually, Paul said in 2nd Corinthians 5 that it wasn't just that He took the sin upon himself. He became sin. Now this is conjecture, but some people think that Him becoming sin was something that people could actually see. At the very least, His Heavenly Father could see, and He turned away from in disgust. But yet, this is the reality of what Scripture teaches. He took sin into His being. He had to, because He was the Sacrificial Lamb. So, what was the reality of Him taking that sin upon Himself? I don't know exactly, but it must have broken the Father's heart. "My Father, My Father, why are you forsaking me?" You know, at His time of greatest need, His father turned away from Him.  

Mike: Peter solemnly instructed us to conduct ourselves in fear. You mention that this, perhaps, was one of the reasons: Jesus having done this for us. To treat this flippantly, should be a very fearful thing.  

Steve: That was the whole point of beginning the book with the reality of what really happened at Calvary: to kind of shake us out of this flippant, nonchalant attitude about Calvary and what happened there. You know, our attitude, not everyone, but with many, is, we have developed this entitlement attitude with God as if He owes it to us. That if we said the sinner’s prayer, go to church on Sundays, that He owes Heaven to us. That attitude is in many hearts today. It's quiet and it's subtle. We don't ever really think that through, of course, but it's very subtle. And when you start to come into the reality of what God had to do to His Son, how He had to exact His wrath upon His Son, it makes you sit up and take notice and have a much greater reverential fear of what the implications of that Cross mean.  

Mike: In talking about The Message of the Cross, you started by looking at a difference between what was real in the life of Judas, and what was real in the lives of the other eleven disciples. Talk about that a bit.  

Steve: Well, we know that some months before Calvary, Jesus began to warn His disciples of what was to come. In Luke 9 He said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and be killed." He was telling the disciples what was coming. Apparently, He would remind them on different occasions because, you know, we're all kind of dumb and we forget things. And who wants to think about something like that anyway. It would have been indiscernible to you or me, but Jesus could see inside people's hearts. He could see that there was a different reaction going on in Judas's heart towards this message than there was in the other eleven.  

Mike: Even though outwardly, they looked like they were all with Him.  

Steve: Yeah, well, let's face it. On the night that Judas betrayed them, they were all asking, "Is it me?" They couldn't even figure out that it was Judas. There was nothing about Judas' life that stood out to tell them that he was a traitor. There was nothing to show he was rejecting the Message of the Cross and Christianity as it was being offered to him. He was rejecting Him, but there was nothing in His life to identify that. You and I wouldn't have seen it either. The wheat and the tare plants look identical when they're seedlings.  

Mike: You know, we hear that, but if we're in the church and we hear that, we just automatically assume we aren't the tare, even though we can't discern the difference outwardly. Because we're looking at our lives outwardly, we just automatically assume it isn't us.  

Steve: That is the purpose for this book. I had to make it so clear that any sincere person, even if they are a tare and they're sincere, but have never really looked at themselves, that they could not escape the truth.  

Mike: You mentioned in comparing Judas with the other eleven what it was that was different about him.  

Steve: Let's look at the eleven first. Now, they were immature, they were spiritual babies. You know, they were all a big mess. Thomas was depressed about everything. Peter was a loudmouth. They all had their issues and their baggage, just like we do. They were just men, but there was something in their hearts that responded in a positive way to the message of sacrifice and self-denial intertwined in the Christian message. But when Judas would hear those things, there was a different reaction inside. There was a resistance, there was a pulling away, there was a rejecting going on inside. But again, outwardly he was doing everything right. He would fit right in with today's church. That's the thing people don't understand is, they've got him made out to be some kind of a monster. But the truth is Judas would sit in the pew with us and we wouldn't think a thing of it. He's really no different than many so-called Christians that are in our churches today.  

Mike: You wrote, "The life of Judas represents those of all ages who desire the Heaven of Christ, without the Cross of Christ." You've already hinted at as to what that means. What does that mean?  

Steve: The bottom line between real Christianity and pseudo-Christianity is this: Who is on the throne of your heart? We can talk the talk, but there's a reality inside that Jesus is looking for that is the determining factor about where we're going to spend eternity.

Being needy is not a popular idea today. Our culture values self-confidence, self-reliance and self-satisfaction. Unfortunately, these values often put on a religious mask and sneak into the church in the form of religious pride.

This pride deceives many people into believing the best about themselves, even those who are enslaved to sexual sin. Today we’re going to look at how important it is to grasp our true condition before God. We’ll also explore why our attempts to be good in our own strength often prevent us from experiencing the abundant life promised to us in Jesus.