Jesus said that the devil has been a, “murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” When you consider that the devil once shared in the riches of God’s goodness and love, this statement reveals the depths to which he fell. He knew first-hand the spiritual riches and beauty that even the sincerest believers have only tasted. Yet, he abandoned the truth and was cast down from heaven. Since that rebellion, Satan has spent 6,000 years reveling in lies. Everywhere he goes, he brings with him a powerful spiritual atmosphere of deception. And in order to disentangle ourselves from this atmosphere, we must see why deception is the prevailing characteristic of our day. Today we expose the strategies and character of the father of lies.

In part 2 of our interview with Dustin Renz we discuss the life of hypocrisy he fell into for 10 long years after his conversion; he lived a double life as a good Christian on the outside and an addict in secret. He discusses the spiritual consequences of this period of his life and what it took for him to gain true freedom.

When a person lives in deception, they do it because they believe that it's going to benefit them. “If I tell the truth,” they say, “it's going to cost me.” In their mind the cost of the truth will be their comfort or their possessions or their family or their reputation. But what that person cannot see is that the cost of truth is far less than the cost of deception because, even though the truth might cost some temporal things, the cost of deception is their character. In a previous interview with Dustin Renz, we talked about the Satanic darkness that he allowed into his heart before he came to know Jesus. And about the incredible freedom that came when he started walking in the light. But even after Dustin came to know Christ, there was a time when he allowed deception to rule in his heart and it cost him dearly.

Dustin you wrote a book called “Pile of Masks: Exposing Christian Hypocrisy” to help professing Christians walk in the truth. I want to read a quote from it to give listeners a more complete picture of the life that you lived for a number of years. You said “most of my credentials [as far as writing the book] came from time living in the wilderness. The seasons I spent in Teen Challenge and Pure Life Ministries serve as bookends for nearly 10 years of running from God much like the biblical prophet Jonah. However, my running was done internally and the fish that swallowed me was called hypocrisy. But, like Jonah, I too realized the desperate situation I was in and cried out to God for mercy.” So to start today, can you talk to us about that 10 year period where you left to the light of truth and began walking in hypocrisy?

So it really started when I graduated Teen Challenge and I got a little bit more freedom (pornography had been a part of my life since I was young). In the beginning I was a sincere believer and I kind of had opened up this door. I tried to get a little bit of help, but I didn't really allow people to help me very much and so I kind of had this thing on the side. I want to Bible College and it became: on the weekends I go work at Teen Challenge and I'd look at pornography and then I'd go back to Bible school. And what took place over a period of time… I could see pivotal points where the double life kind of grew. It all revolved around secrecy and I began to lie. I lied to my fiance who became my wife. I lied to a counselor at school. I had to lie to get my credentials to preach. It was not a one day decision of “I'm just going to walk away from God internally and pretend to be a Christian.” It wasn't like that; it was these these small decisions, one at a time. Eventually, there was this public Dustin that everyone respected—I was in ministry; I became a missionary. Everyone thought “this is who Dustin really is.” Then there was this private Dustin that had gotten tangled back into drugs and alcohol and pornography and all that kind of darkness that God had rescued me out I began to gravitate toward, only in secret. It was almost like there was this public me and then there was the me that was hidden that actually looked a lot like I did before I got saved and it was a growing darkness one decision at a time.

One of the things that stands out in your book is that during this whole process, as you were making that one decision at a time that's creating this double life, was that the Lord was trying to restrain you. He was trying to keep you from that and keep you close to him. You were really honest about it, you said that that restraining love just made you angry, because it felt like God was trying to keep you—again that lie was resurfacing—God's trying to keep you from something that you deserved. How did your internal world change as you believed those lies?

What took place over a period of time—again this was the gradual change—there was a time where I really wanted to please God and got into the ministry to serve him and that was very much a real passion for me and fueled what I did. Over time it became more and more about me, especially as I began to live for myself, even though it was in secret. So the ministry became, in my heart, an opportunity for me to get famous or become something. So what took place is, over that time, I saw the Lord... He became a stumbling block to me pursuing what I want and looking back I can see it as mercy. He was trying to stop me from destroying myself; He knew that if I really pursued what was in my heart it would end up being the end of me. So He was actually trying to restrain me, but what happened inside was that I really got bitter to the place where eventually I really felt like I didn't t even want to be a Christian anymore. I felt trapped in a Christian life: I had married a Christian woman, I'd give myself to the ministry; I didn't have any kind of other career options or plans and so I kind of felt like I had set myself up to be stuck in this world with this God that I didn't trust anymore and I thought that he was really you know against me. So I just became very bitter, just this miserable bitter person.

In our “World of Lies” series we've spent a lot of time focusing on how dangerous it is to harbor any kind of deceit in our hearts. And it's really easy to do that because we've got the cultures lies we've got the lies even in the evangelical church and then we've got the deceitful propensity of our own hearts. When you've got all that arrayed against you it might be easy to say “man it's as impossible, I could never walk in in the light of truth,” but you're a testimony that it is possible because you were in full-fledged deception and you did make a massive turn and begin to walk in the light. So what was that real turning point for you?

It began with my confession. I was on the mission field and I confessed everything to my wife and that set a series of events that took place: getting taken off the mission field and resigning and all these things that took place that, basically, were consequences of that. What I found is when I got back to the United States, for the first time, I didn't have a mask to hide behind. People knew because we came back early. I had to confess to family and friends; I mean it was fairly public. So instead of immediately repenting I just got even more bitter. I really wanted to run from God; I was really just in a place of I just want to give myself over to my sin that I want to deal with the consequences. 8 months of being in that dark place and I had the opportunity to come to Pure Life Ministries. I came as a last resort; I really didn't come with hope that things were going to get different. I thought for sure these people aren't able teach me anything. I feel like I know it all anyhow and showed up here at the program. The Lord just brought me through a several-month process of repentance; breaking down the self life, revealing my heart to me, showing me what I was really like and and it was this cooperation of him showing me and me admitting it and confessing it and crying out for help. It was through that process the Lord really brought me to a breaking point where I just really realized he was my only option if I was going to ever be free. It was the same place that I found back when I was in Teen Challenge. The same God who set me free once could do it again and if I wanted it, I could cry out to him, and he was making that available. So through a series of events that's kind of what happened: I'd ended up in the chapel for a while, for about a week, just crying out to God: “Lord I still want to have this relationship; if this is really available to someone like me who's done all these things; been in so much deception and really brought shame to the name of Jesus by my lifestyle... but if you still want me... I want what you have to offer me.” It was at that point in time he began this other process of rebuilding me and restoring me and bringing that restoration into my life that now, 10 years later, has brought me on a completely different path than what I was on before.

Did you ever think during that really painful moment, this crisis moment, like “what's happening to me is bad this can't go anywhere good.”?

I feel like the Lord, and He does this sometimes, He brings it just like where you feel like you can't bear it anymore and kind of dangles you there for a minute just like to let you feel that pain and I just remember shortly before the breakthrough came the feeling like “OK God I've done everything I know to do I've confessed, I've cried out to you, I see everything that you're saying, I agree with you and I just don't know what else to do.” I really felt like... I thought I was going to get crushed by the weight and it was at that point where I felt like “I cannot take this anymore,” when he began to reveal himself in a different way and that really began that process.

I think that would give people a lot of hope who might be nearing that breaking point: just keep letting the Lord do that; keep letting him take you there. As we start to close, I want to step away from your personal testimony and get your perspective as a pastor on something. We both know from our own experience and experience ministering to people that the church today is filled with all kinds of spiritual illnesses that have their root in hypocrisy. And your ministry is calling the bride of Christ to come up to your real calling your real testimony. What do you think is the biggest thing that is hindering people from coming out of hypocrisy?

I think one of the biggest issues in the western church especially is we've just learned to play church games. We figured out how to do Christianity and make it look authentic without actually it impacting our hearts, which is why Pure Life and my ministry and others like ours, we're calling people, constantly, to examine their hearts because that's where... Christianity has always been about the heart and I feel like in our culture somehow we've become religious in our Christianity where we've put up an image that if you go to church if you talk like a Christian, you listen to Christian music, you do certain Christian things—that's what Christianity is. Somebody can do that and live for their self at the same time. The reason people have such a hard time coming out of that is because there's such a lack of transparency in the church where we don't feel like we can have real, honest conversations about what's really going on because there's fear that is involved and it seems very widespread. I don't think people even see another option so you kinda end up just kind of fading in with the ranks and not ever allowing people into that deep place that says “here's who I really am.”

As you're talking about coming out of hypocrisy you said it yourself that what had to happen was that there had to be a confrontation with the truth, and one of the things that Pastor Steve has been lamenting about during this entire series is that, largely, in the church pastors aren't giving people the truth they're giving people what they want something that caters to their own thoughts and feelings. So what's your take on that. If people aren't even getting the truth, how are they going to come out of hypocrisy?

You know I try not to discount the fact that God has a way of doing things despite the culture. And I do have hope that God is raising up voices. Obviously if I didn't think it was possible then my ministry would be kind of irrelevant because it would be a lost cause, but I do think that God's raising up repentance preachers and a return to holiness. Whether or not that's a widespread thing—that doesn't seem very likely with the current church culture—but I do think that... Jesus said “My sheep hear My voice they'll know my voice,” and so I think even despite a worldly church culture... of course there's a lot of people in the masses that have itching ears... there are some that are hungry. The Lord's always got a remnant; I've seen it as I've gone to minister in churches and been part of the church world, there are some that are the real deal who really want the Lord and they see that they're being sold short and so the Lord has a way of getting a hold of those ones. I would pray and and love to continue to pray, and I will, that the whole church would wake up, but based on the current culture and what I see in the scriptures that doesn't seem like a very likely scenario, but despite all of that I do believe the Lord's working and will continue to work. I think what happened to me of course could happen to someone else. It happens at Pure Life on a regular basis but it also happens in churches when people hear the truth, it happens in devotional times and quiet times when people are reading the scriptures for themselves. So I think the Lord's got a way of getting a hold of his people.

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One last question before we stop: that point where you said everything began to change was the point where you told someone everything. For the person who is knowing right now; they're listening and they're knowing “I'm that one who has to tell someone everything,” but the prospect of what it's going to cost them is absolutely terrifying. Just speak to that person.

First off I would say allowing it all to come out and exposing that was not an immediate fix as I thought—in some ways it was the beginning of the nightmare because that's when I had to walk through a lot of the consequences so... I had this picture of this beautiful moment where it came out and then all the consequences are wiped away. I had a misconception about it. However, looking back over my life, for years, I had wanted to confess what I was doing. For years I thought if I could stop lying about this, if I could get out of the darkness, I can at least begin the process of getting free. I literally wasted year after year after year after year after year hoping to get it right between me and God. That was the lie that was always there: I can do this; God you need to help me and one day I'll get free and no one will ever have to know.” It's a lie from the devil; I mean we're talking about the deceptions of the enemy; the Devil's right there. My biggest cheerleader in my hypocrisy was the devil whispering in my ear: you don't have to tell anybody. I think that's the biggest lie we have to overcome is, I look back and I don't think it was even possible that I could ever have gotten true repentance without first talking. The option of “I'm going to get this right eventually in secret,” was never a real option it was the enemy just putting that out front of me and so it always seemed like, “next times the last time and I'm going to get free,” and I'd have like a couple of weeks where I wouldn't be in some sin and I be like, “OK I'm free, but then I'd fall back, but it was always an illusion I was chasing. The reality was exposure is an absolute necessity. I tell married men all the time, if you're married and you have a spouse you need to confess whatever's going on; you need to let your wife know, but beyond that a spiritual leader you know find somebody; not just a buddy you can chat with who's not going to bring you to a place of accountability, but you need to find somebody that you can be real with and then allow the process of consequences and conversations; all those things you have to walk through, walk through it one step at a time realizing there is freedom coming, but you're going to have to walk through some pain along the way. But the longer you put off that decision, the deeper you get into it anyways and so what you could expose today and get free, if you wait two years, imagine how much more deeper the darkness because the sin doesn't shrink it gets bigger in darkness. The Bible says today is the day of salvation; it is a great day to expose sin and get it out in the light; yes you should have done it 10 years ago. You didn't but now's your opportunity and I would just encourage somebody: do it now, make that phone call, have that conversation while you feel the Lord convicting you, because if you wait you'll convince yourself enough to do it.

We’ve come to a critical point in our series, World of Lies. So far,  we’ve discussed how deception works and why it’s so dangerous to the Christian. We’ve looked at how our culture is constantly feeding us  ungodly messages and seen that even the church is filled with proponents of these same lies. Now we turn and begin examining how to really Walk  in Truth in a World of Lies. Today we look at the first part of that process. It begins with a choice that every one of us must make at some  point in our lives. This choice is much like the one God asked Abraham  to make. He had to choose to forsake his life in a pagan nation, leave  everything he had ever known, and to go to a land God would show him.  God is asking each one of us to make that same choice, trusting Him,  like Abraham, to bring us to a better land. So, will you heed the call,  and once and for all Forsake the Land of Deception?

Our enemy is very real. We are the targets of his schemes, and he will be satisfied with nothing less than the destruction of our lives and our souls. Dustin Renz knows these schemes very well. He came to Pure life about a decade ago, and his story shows very dramatically how Satan is able to draw us into his world and corrupt our souls with his lies. Dustin’s experience may be more extreme than yours, but listen closely, because his story will help bring the enemy’s schemes in your life into sharp focus. (From #403 -   World of Lies: The Father of Lies)

Dustin, several chapters in "Walking in Truth in a World of Lies" are devoted to explaining why Satan's lies are so powerful, and we know he is a master deceiver, but the reason that they are so powerful—that they have such a hold on us—is because our own sinful hearts want that deception. And we can hear those things in a theoretical sense, but miss how it connects to our own lives, how our own hearts are being pulled by the lies of the enemy. So I wanted to bring you in because, for many years, you bought into the devil's lies, and that was taking you somewhere very real in your internal world. I was hoping that you could give people a picture about what it was like for you in your life when you were walking down that path.

Sure, when I was young we did ouija boards and listened to satanic music. When I was at a friend's house, I got exposed to all these dark things. At that time, when I was really young, I kind of rejected it. I experienced it; but I didn't really long for it. It wasn't until I went through some things in my life: my parents divorce and some other things, when I found myself beginning to latch on to that. For me it was always music that was the driving force behind it. I listened to all kinds of satanic and goth rock bands, and what it did was open me up to a satanic deception and that really became a driving force of my life. As a teenager—in my formative years not, really understanding exactly what I was getting into—I just remember I was so filled with rage and hatred. I just hated myself and who I'd become and I hated people around me. I had a very strong desire to get revenge on people; I wanted to hurt people, I wanted to hurt myself; I had a history of suicide attempts. Outwardly that played out in cross-dressing and wearing all black; I did all that kind of stuff. I was very depressed, but even after I got out of that lifestyle and started dabbling with drugs and partying, I had the same internal anger and frustration and all that kind of came with me at all times. When I look back—I wouldn't have been able to verbalize this back then—I see… you know the Bible talks about how Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and I realized I never had... I always had an awareness that the God of the Bible was really God and that there was a real devil but somehow, in all that I went through, the devil had almost convinced me that he was like a friend to me, that he would give me what I wanted—my heart's desires—and that God wouldn't be able to supply those things. So in all of that it was very confusing and deceiving, but looking back I felt like that's kind of like at the root of it: I really believed that God wasn't good and wasn't going to provide for me what I needed.

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I'm glad you shared that about that lie that you were believing because that's what I wanted to talk about next. When Pastor Steve and I talked in a previous episode, he said that people are changed by deception over a period of time. So that they start out here and they end here... Often the way it works is that a lie presents itself and a person follows that—buys into that lie—and then there are other deceptions that begin to present themselves and the longer you go down that path of following these lies, you are changing internally and your externals are changing and we can end up in places we never imagined we would back at the beginning. You know even if people can't relate to the specifics—cross-dressing, drugs, suicide—that lie that you were believing, that the devil has something to offer and God is withholding something, that is common to man. So talk more about that, maybe, as you look back. How did that play out in your life?

When you look at the Garden of Eden that's really the first lie that Satan told Eve. The first thing: God's holding out on you, there's something he doesn't want you to have. So I think all these years later it still works, and that was the basis of the belief because I grew up in church I had some kind of understanding, but it was as if there was always some kind of offer on the table. It kind of changed at different times, but it was always a promise of satisfaction. At times, “if you follow this path there's going to be pleasure,” and all these things; chasing an experience that I could never really achieve but there is that pursuit. I remember at times it was really about power. Because I had been picked on and because I've been bullied and abused, I had this inward thing that one day I was going to get back against everybody. "One day I'm going to get my revenge on everyone." I even remember—it sounds crazy now—but like when I was a freshman in high school, I was in the middle of this darkness. I had a friend and I told her, “listen I need to tell you a secret,” and we talked and I said, “I think I'm some kind of God.” I said, “I've got this power; there's something in me that one day is going to be shown to the world.” I couldn't even explain what that was, but I had this feeling, and I look back and I know it's just a demonic lie; the devil promises that to people. I was pursuing that, there was something in me that wanted power. Eventually when I began doing music and got into hip hop music, then it was just a desire for fame. It was almost like the devil was saying “if you do this for me, I will elevate you and you will become,” you know “like such and such celebrity." So it was always a pursuit of a self, it was something that I could get... like “God can't provide these things for you because if you do them for him it's going to be for His glory, so if you really want the glory and you really want the power you're going to have to do it for me,” is kind of like the lie that was being purported. So all these years I was chasing something and the devil was almost saying like “just keep on coming a little bit deeper, keep coming a little more into the darkness” and, “it's right here.” But, of course, it was just an illusion, and I could never actually grasp what he was promising.

In that process along with that pursuit came the depression, the rage, the dissatisfaction, but you never connected that with the process of following Satan.

Well if you had asked 14, 15, 16-year-old Dustin, "are you following the devil?" I would not have worded it that way. I knew that I had allowed things into my life. I used to read books on witchcraft and Satanism and listen to those kinds of bands, but I never considered myself like a devil-worshiper. But now on the other side of it looking back at my life, it's so obvious what the devil's scheme was, and what was going on, but in the midst of it was just confusion. I just thought I was trying to live my life and make things happen, you know, and all that was taking place in the spiritual realm, so I couldn't actually see.

Now if someone hasn't heard your testimony: you eventually went to Teen Challenge because of a drug problem, and you had this incredible experience of just coming dramatically into God's light. So what was it like to have been in that darkness and then, suddenly, to have your mind, your heart, your emotions just changed and transformed and made whole?

I mean it was incredible. The first month I was there at the program, I was unable to get drugs, I had no escape, I was off medications; all that. So the darkness was very vivid; I mean I remember just getting angry at someone in the program and going and writing poetry about how I was going to kill him and all this kind of stuff. It was like, all of a sudden, I had nowhere to hide and all that demonic stuff was like there and I couldn't retreat from it by medicating. So when I finally surrendered my life to Christ, it was a moment of “I can't do this anymore and if you're real you have to show yourself.” And, if not, I figured I would just go and end up dead. I knew where I would head, it was kind of like a “make or break” situation. You know the Scriptures talk about being a new creation “the old has gone the new is come,” and I look back at my life and it was so obvious that God had done something because I literally transformed, not necessarily overnight, but in a very short period of time, into a completely different person. Every motive of my heart, the priorities, the peace inside; my mind being renewed and clear and just the desire to be with the Lord. All I wanted to do was worship and pray. We weren't allowed to keep the lights on at night except for if you're in the bathroom so I would go in the bathroom with my Bible, and for hours I would just dig through the Scriptures, because I was so hungry for God. A scripture says that we're brought out of darkness into his marvelous light. For some people that's more subtle, but for me that was a very apparent reality—not only to me but to everyone around me.

So today you're a pastor and you have a speaking ministry, you've written several books and I know one of the things that just burdens you deeply is that you want to see the church be what she has been called to be both corporately and individually. So when you see someone who's, maybe not even going down as dramatic a path as you, but just believing those lies, and you're seeing the enemy leading them away from the Lord, what do you do to help?

There's a couple things: the first one, probably, should be obvious but in today's church cultures, sometimes things aren’t so obvious, but the Word of God being the unadulterated truth of God; that every lie that the enemy has ever come up with, the truth is in that word. I think we underestimate the power of the Scriptures, so when I'm counseling, it's taking them to the scripture, when I'm preaching, when I minister, in my books; everything that I do, I'm very concerned that the scripture is throughout it because that's the truth that really transforms people's lives. I remember listening to David Wilkerson a few years ago in a message, and he defined a stronghold as any lie that a Christian believes and that's always stuck with me. The solution to that is, if you're believing a lie, then you need to be confronted with the truth and we get that with the Word. The other thing that I found, for me personally, that's been very powerful, is the power of testimony. I had that experience recently with somebody, just being able to minister to somebody and say “listen, I may not have been exactly where you're at, but let me tell you a little bit about what God brought me out of,” and there's something that clicks with people when they see, “well maybe I'm not the only one dealing with this,” and when they see somebody who's been through something similar and those lies have been overthrown and they're walking in the truth, it gives them the hope—it's almost like an invitation: God did this for me, he can do it for you.

One last follow up: the further you go into that darkness the more power that darkness actually has over you, and I know that the hopelessness and despair can feel like "I am never getting out of this prison." What would you say to a person like that today?

I would tell them there is hope... You've heard the story, if someone is listening right now. I'm not the only one that God has done that for, but part of the enemy's deception is to make you believe there's no hope for you. And that's one of the reasons a lot of people, I think, they refuse Christ or they refuse the offer of salvation because they feel “God might love someone else. He might be able to die for them, but there's no hope for me.” If you can identify that as not truth and look at the truth of the scripture that there's hope in Christ, that He died for the world, the sins of the world, and that he died for you. If you can begin to realize, “maybe I feel hopeless, it could just be the enemy telling me that but what if God does love me? What if he really does want to set me free? what if there is hope for me?” and begin to confront those lies and find somebody, especially, that you can walk through this with. Listening to an interview is maybe a first step in receiving that help, but go to a spiritual leader, a pastor, a trusted friend and begin to share those things that are inside. I find, oftentimes, the more deceived you are the more you keep that stuff internally and when you begin to speak it out loud, you realize how ridiculous it sounds; when you actually say to somebody, “there's no hope for someone like me,” and when it comes out you're like wait a minute that sounds like a lie. So sometimes just confiding in someone who has the spiritual ability to help you. Tell them, “here's what I'm feeling what do you think?” Allow them to minister to you and allow them to begin to bring you to the truth of God's word and it would be a great first step in the process.

Scripture tells us that the last days are characterized by deception on a global scale. But Jesus and the apostles didn’t primarily warn us about deception that would come from the world. The main thing they were concerned about was the deception that would assault Christians from inside the church.  And any serious student of Scripture will quickly conclude that our modern church is filled with messages that match the description of these lies which the apostles spoke of. Part six of our current series, World of Lies, discusses why Christians must have discernment in order to overcome the deception seeking to cripple their faith. If you would like more information about Steve Gallagher’s book, Walking in Truth in a World of Lies, visit www.aworldoflies.org . And, if you’d like to learn more about Glenn and Jessie Meldrum’s ministry, In His Presence Ministries, visit www.ihpministry.com . You can also check out Glenn’s podcast, The Radical Truth Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

Jesus  said that the devil has been a, “murderer from the beginning and does not  stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks  out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” When you consider that the devil once shared in the riches of God’s goodness and love, this statement reveals the depths to which he fell. He knew first-hand the   spiritual riches and beauty that even the sincerest believers have only tasted. Yet, he abandoned the truth and was cast down from heaven. Since that   rebellion, Satan has spent 6,000 years reveling in lies. Everywhere he goes, he brings with him a powerful spiritual atmosphere of deception. And in order to disentangle ourselves from this atmosphere, we must see why deception is the prevailing characteristic of our day. Today we expose the strategies and character of the father of lies.

In the  history of the Church, there have been times when she was far from the shining, burning lamp that she ought to be. Times when the fire of her devotion was so suffocated by a gospel of lies that it was little more than a smoking ember fighting for life in the midst of an icy spirit of ritualism, worldliness and compromise. What a contrast, then, were the powerful revivals of the First and Second Great Awakenings, the Welsh revival and the Hebrides awakening. The Holy Spirit of God would invade our world, bringing gut-wrenching repentance to men and women, sweeping drunkards and prostitutes, liars and thieves, hypocrites and backsliders out of the darkness and into the brilliant light of Truth.

Glenn and Jessie Meldrum were saved during such a revival, the Jesus Movement of the 60s and 70s. Since   then, Glenn has preached around the country as an evangelist and pastor of several churches and Jessie has counseled and discipled many women. Both of them have seen firsthand the power of God’s Spirit in those who have truly taken up their cross to follow Jesus. But they have also watched in deep pain as this gospel of lies has once again slowly seeped into the church. They’re here with me in the studio because I want them to share their perspective on how this change took place. (From #402 - World of Lies: A Gospel of Lies)

So you guys are both saved in The Jesus Movement that took place in the '60s and '70s and I would guess that a lot of the people who are listening to our program at least are familiar with the name "Jesus Movement," but probably not familiar with the details. So I was hoping that you could start off by explaining what it was like to be in that revival, personally; what was it that made it so powerful a movement of God in our century?

Glenn: Well it was a real revival. I remember it sweeping through my high school and a lot of people getting saved. A lot of drug dealers and drug users got saved. The first time I went to this Jesus Freak church—I had just gotten save the day before in a park where I was partying—I went there, and I was raised Catholic, and I never felt anything like it. I couldn't have told you what it was, I couldn't have explained it, but He was there so real so powerful. It was a time where the presence of God was very real, very tangible, very powerful; In that church, I don't remember a service, for many years, where there wasn't somebody saved. I mean it was just normal Christianity for people to be saved —many times a lot of people saved. People would feel it driving by; they would be drawn to it and many times they would just turn around and come in when they see all the cars that were there. It was open from early morning till—sometimes we had to kick the people out—at one or 2 in the morning. Then be open again at 7 o'clock with young people just hanging out... Down the road from the church was a middle school and in one week over 100 kids got saved and what happened was the Spirit of God began moving in that school and kids on their own or in twos would walk—leave school walk down and come to get saved. So it was just a powerful move that was there.  

Jessie: Being from a godless home, I never heard the gospel before and at 16 there was such an emptiness in me. But in my high school there were the Jesus freaks and most of them went to this church and when I saw them and would watch them, I just hungered for whatever it was that they had. They found something to fill that emptiness, and they were so filled with joy all the time, bubbling over in them. It was a lot of the people out of the hippie movement: drug dealers, drug users—these people were changed, I mean... they stopped the drugs, they stopped the drinking, you know— it was from darkness into light. So it got the attention of those like me that were looking for something, and we all knew—those of us who were watching the Jesus Freaks—we knew they went to this church, and I wanted to go so bad and the Lord new, and He just opened the door for me to go. I went to a Friday night youth service, and it was powerful, I never experienced anything like that. So it was the 1st time I heard the Gospel and I knew "this is it, this is what I've been missing." I went forward, came to Christ and have served Him since.

Yeah what you were just saying, that there was a real change in people, is one of the things that is really lacking in the church culture today. Pastor Steve in his interviews was looking at the decline of moral integrity and character across the board in American culture over the last 150 years, and especially since the '60s. What would you attribute the moral decline in the church to?

Glenn: Well that's a huge subject so it's not like you can say one thing for sure. I think we have a point of reference that we can look at with the 7 churches in the Book of Revelation in chapters 2 and 3. If you look at the 5 churches that the Lord rebuked, those are going to be dynamics that were in those churches that had caused the churches to sin and not live like they should. I think you could see all those prevalent today; I think the 7 churches all have expressions in individuals and then in the personalities of churches as well. You know with Ephesus; their problem was that they had forsaken their first love. They were busy, they had all kinds of activity, they had ministry, but they had fallen into dead religion and away from the relationship. Then you have other ones that are there that fell into sexual sins, and they let false prophets in. And then the last one in the list is Laodicea that just grew lukewarm. I would think that they're all tied back into the problem of Ephesus: forsaking your first love; when we love Jesus we're not going to be in sexual sins, we're not going to be lukewarm, we're not going to be in dead religion. There are so many dynamics that brought this about. Jesus said, "because wickedness will abound the love of many will grow cold." So what is it about "wickedness would abound" that would cause people to forsake their first love? And I think that's where it comes down to the things in Steve's book that he brings out: the sensuality, the business of life, the lies that are everywhere: news to schools to science and so on—all these lies that have permeated our culture that, ultimately, because wickedness does abound through that, it has affected the church. Rather than the church affecting the culture, we've allowed the culture to affect the church. So there's been this compromise, this lukewarmness, this forsaking of our first love, because there is so much business, so much activity and so much sensuality that people have not kept their heart and mind fixed on Christ.

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Jessie: When I see the decline of the church, I think people stopped understanding the necessity of prayer. E.M. Bounds explains conversion as "God taking a prayerless man and making him into a praying man." It's what should happen when we come into the kingdom: we become a people a prayer. It's one of the things that Jesus addressed that “my house is not a house of prayer anymore.” So it's like houses of prayer had become everything but. So I think the decline started when people thought prayer was optional. There is no way the church can be salt and light and hold back the darkness if it's not a praying church.

If someone in the Bible Belt say, who's totally a nonbeliever, but someone in the Bible Belt looks at the church—they would probably think that it's thriving because they would see churches on every corner; they see celebrity pastors; they see Christian bookstores and Christian radio stations. So it seems like there's all this activity; it seems like there's all this health, but it's a subculture—it's not true Christianity—it's just a subculture of people that have grown up around the church and one of the things that comes along with that subculture are pastors and teachers who are preaching and teaching a totally false message. If you were to talk to like a young believer who is just brand new, and you were going to warn them about false teachers what would you tell them to be looking for?

Jessie: I would warn believers to be careful of pragmatism—the whole idea that "something is big so it must be God." That is a very deceptive thought that people are drawn to something just because it's big, because there's a lot of activity. The question that every believer should ask in any church is, first of all, "is God here?" I mean "is God putting his stamp of approval on this? Is the word faithfully preached from the pulpit? Is that the Spirit of God there?" We should be able to sense the Holy Spirit in a place where He is and not be deceived by all the activity. Look at the lives of the leadership; are they are they living set apart for God? Do they have true life in God? There's just some much of the world that's in the church, and people need discernment.

Glenn: I guess I'd be firstly telling them to look for the Word of God. You know get themselves immersed in the Word of God. The only way we're going to know what lies are is we have to know what the truth is. So they need to know the Word and they need to understand it and not be defined by the cultural Christianity of today that sounds plausible and can use scriptures, but takes them out of context. Then as what Jesse was referring to: a life of prayer. The ability to truly discern what is true and false is going to be because of the relationship we have with Christ. Apart from that, we are not going to know. We can even have a list of false teachings, but if we don't have that right fellowship with Jesus, then we're not going to have the ability to really understand it or to stand against it.

I was sitting down with a pastor at a donut shop having coffee with him and talking. He was running a little bit late, and I saw a couple of Mormons and I knew they were Mormons and so it was only a little bit before they came over and were trying to talk with me. The problem is that even in Mormonism, they have changed their language, where they talk so Christian, but all their words have different meanings. Well that's what's happening in the compromised church: they say the same words, but they have different meanings with it. So if we don't know the Word of God, then we're not going to be able to understand the truth. So we have to go beyond the words that people are saying and understand what are they really meaning by that? So when one preacher says "grace," what does he mean by that? If we don't understand the word, then we're not going to comprehend that.

This book, "Walking in Truth in a World of Lies," obviously a huge bulk of the book is explaining the deceptions that are in the world, the deceptions that are in the church. And you've gone out to hundreds, thousands of churches in your over 20 years of evangelistic ministry, right? Have you found that in every church there are some people who are hungry for truth?

Glenn: According to the pastor and the message and the spiritual life of the church is going to be the percentage of people that are really saved. Every church is going to have the problem of some hypocrites and people that aren’t walking right and so it is going to be in the absolute best churches that are out there. But the percentage is going to be much smaller and when the gospel's not preached there, then the percentage of those who are real followers of Jesus going to get really small or nonexistent. We have seen over the years people that have had a hunger and, just like with the 7 churches I referred to, you could go to that individual church and you could almost pick out some of the people there. But there's going to be the Church of Philadelphia and Sardis, the ones who were praised. They're going to be there as well. So you can have these people that have a desire for God, a passion for Him and some that are just going along for the ride.

Jessie: Yes I think that there are, especially in the churches we minister in, people who are hungry for God and they're doing, scripturally, what they need to do to seek Him and find Him wholeheartedly. But one of the things that's very sad that we've seen is churches where, maybe there's a couple there, that kind of latched on to us and kept in touch over the years and the pastor would like not have us back after one or 2 times, but this couple would continue to correspond with us. And we could see, because of the number of years we've done this, we could see over time how they were dying… As the church declines because the pastor is lowering the standard, is just watering it down... you can't stay in an environment like that and not be affected by it. We know many people over the years that said, "well you know I know this church it's not really... they're not preaching a true gospel, but we're going to hang in there and hopefully we can be an influence," but they don't understand that year after year under this, you are going to die. So people have to be very careful.

Do you think that another revival is coming to America?

Jessie: On one side I don't see hope for a national awakening, but I do believe He's still a God of revival. As long as there's still grace, as long as mercy is still working, then perhaps He will pour out on communities and towns and little pockets where people are crying out, are seeking for a move of God. I can't stop praying for revival. It was what I was saved in and when you come into the kingdom that way, it's like you're always looking for it again; you're always crying out to the Lord because it's the only way multitudes will be able to come in. Those who are in the world that have no understanding of the gospel, it takes something like God stepping down, God doing a work in the land.

Glenn: I want to believe that there is. I'm very afraid... something is getting into America that is deeper and more sinister than people understand. I wrote an article and actually preached on it: called “Unredeemable.” And the whole premise of the article is showing that cultures can come to a place where they're unredeemable, so you have that in the days of Noah. The culture became unredeemable: all that was left was judgement. You have that with Sodom and Gomorrah and the 10 cities of the plain—they were unredeemable. You have the Amalekites in the days of Saul. You even have Israel itself, the northern kingdom of Israel was totally destroyed, and the southern kingdom was taken into captivity 150 years later, though they were able to come back. You have then even in the days of Jesus or after Jesus and 70 A.D. when the Roman general Titus came in, who eventually became emperor of Rome, he came and destroyed Jerusalem killing over a 1,000,000 Jews in the midst of it all. Jesus had warned, he said, "you did not know the day of God's coming to you," when He prophesied judgment upon them. So culture can become so evil that even a revival will not correct it and all that's left, then, is judgement. Where a culture comes; where it crosses that line, I can't say, but there are things that are going on in our culture that are so deep-rooted that are so deep-rooted within the church that I think becomes a major hindrance to a move of God, because now if people are going to repent it's not just having to change a little bit of their life, it's this total revolution, changing everything that they have and do the culture of their own life. So it's getting harder and harder for revival. In the decline of the church that's where you have hope for revival but—I don't know. Tozer ended up saying, and this would have been 70 years ago... 65 years ago, he says “if we have a revival of the type of Christianity we have today, it will take us 100 years to recover from it." And that's the problem, we don't need a revival of modern Christianity. If we have revival, we need a revival of Biblical Christianity, of New Testament Christianity; where it is a revolution, a spiritual revolution that grabs hold of people and transforms their life and then they live it out till the day they die.

Our desires shape us and dictate our decisions, and one of the strongest desires inside every human is the desire for knowledge. The 21st century has given us an unprecedented ability to indulge this hunger, to the point that we have access to an almost limitless amount of information. On the surface, this abundance of information seems to make limitless progress attainable for us. But it also comes with a price, especially since most of it comes from a world of lies. Today we tackle three areas that cater to this deception: mass media, the internet, and pornography.

Scripture tells us that the last days are characterized by deception on a global scale. But Jesus and the apostles didn’t primarily warn us about deception that would come from the world. The main thing they were concerned about was the deception that would assault Christians from inside the church. And any serious student of Scripture will quickly conclude that our modern church is filled with messages that match the description of these lies which the apostles spoke of. Part six of our current series, World of Lies, discusses why Christians must have discernment in order to overcome the deception seeking to cripple their faith.

America has often been called the greatest nation on earth, founded on the belief that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are God-given rights for all. But what has been the outcome and the fruit of such noble-sounding ideals? Today you many believe things like, "I deserve everything I want;" "my version of the truth is obviously right;" "the government exists to serve me;" "no one can judge me." How could the ideals of our founding devolve into such selfishness and pride? In this episode, we discuss how the lies of the academic, business, and political realms have helped form us into The United States of Deception.

Our desires shape us and dictate our decisions, and one of the strongest  desires inside every human is the desire for knowledge. The 21st century has given us an unprecedented ability to indulge this hunger, to  the point that we have access to an almost limitless amount of information.

On the surface, this abundance of information seems to make  limitless progress attainable for us. But it also comes with a price,  especially since most of it comes from a world of lies. Today we tackle  three areas that cater to this deception: mass media, the internet, and pornography.

In this interview with long-time Residential Program counselor, Ken Larkin, we discuss the hopelessness that often grips sex addicts. Hopelessness can lead to self-pity and despair, which will prevent us from finding victory over sexual sin and create a barrier between us and God.

Ken, as we continue to sketch out the profile of a typical sexual addict in the church, we've come to this idea of just feeling hopeless. I know a lot of people are there, and I wanted to start by playing for you the description Pastor Steve gave of this particular characteristic:

“Living in spiritual defeat over a prolonged period of time causes the man to waffle back and forth between an inflated sense of his own spirituality and a feeling of overwhelming hopelessness. Part of the problem is that for years he has run to books, seminars and support group meetings in the hope that he can overcome his problems with a minimal amount of effort. His dilemma has been exacerbated because he has gotten his hopes up many times over the years by the exaggerated claims of people offering help. ‘Read this book it's powerful;’ ‘this seminar will change your life!’ He dutifully reads those books and attends those seminars but finds that nothing is changed. Each promising situation that doesn't bring victory leaves him more cynical. After a while he even becomes skeptical about the promises held out by Scripture.”

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Ken, Pastor Steve mentioned that people tried different kinds of things unsuccessfully to find freedom oftentimes. What kinds of things have you known for people to try in order to get free from sexual sin?

Really the full gamut; I mean first of all just sheer willpower—just trying hard enough. And then as pastor Steve mentioned self-help books, materials, conferences, seminars, support groups, accountability; different types of therapists and counselors; psychoanalysis: going to see a psychiatrist or psychologist.

Internet filters will be another one: “if I can just put a filter on the device that will help me.” Even getting rid of a phone or a computer or a laptop. And even going the spiritual route: praying more, getting more into the Bible; some guys have even fasted for extended periods hoping to get free through those efforts.

When Christians aren't seeing change and they feel this hopelessness because of their failure, I'm wondering what's really the root of that because I think, maybe, some people are hopeless because they know they failed God, whereas other people it's more because they feel like God failed them.

So, first, how common would you say it is for addicts to feel hopeless in the sense that they have this intense guilt about their failure that's constantly plaguing them?

It's very common and as a matter of fact the reason why it's there is because they have a real, objective guilt. They are living a lifestyle of sin, so they are guilty before a holy God; their conscience and the Word of God testifies to this fact. Their lifestyle does not line up with the truth that they know to be true from God's Word.

Yeah, I imagine it would be very easy to get into that place, but you've observed this quite a lot. What other dynamics would you say kind of feed into that mentality and reinforce that guilt getting so strong in someone's life?

Well, we're talking about hopelessness, so it's not just guilt—the fact that I'm guilty—but it's like this nagging thing that says “I'm never going to be out from under this guilt,” and of course when you're living in habitual sin, you're focusing on yourself and what you want, your desires. So they're caught up in their own little world and are stuck on themselves instead of turning to God. And with that the enemy of our souls, the devil, will try to feed on that and actually lead someone into condemnation, that there's no way out of that guilt. And then instead of turning to God, they turn to despair and hopelessness.

When you're talking about this whole topic of guilt, we all would say that's a good thing—someone ought to feel some degree of guilt about what they've done—but it seems like you're saying it can actually overwhelm someone to the point where they're paralyzed.

Yeah that's correct.

You touched at the end there about people feeling almost under accusation from the enemy. I have talked to people like that; people who really struggle with this dark spiritual mindset. They are doubting that God loves them; they even might be having blasphemous thoughts about God and really feeling bad about that. Where does that kind of thing come from?

Well it's definitely from the enemy. You can't rule out the person's own sinful nature: the flesh. If you're living in sin and God's telling you that you need to live differently, and you're rebelling, it is going to be natural to have antagonistic thoughts against God that might escalate into blasphemous thoughts, accusing God or cursing God. But ultimately, I believe it's the enemy. And the enemy would do anything he can to keep someone from God and from really knowing the freedom that's found in Christ.

All right then let's flip it around maybe and talk about the other type of person. Tell us maybe about the kind of guy that you counsel regarding sexual sin who feels more like God's the one that has failed them. If they're in that place, why do they feel that way and where does that end if they keep going down that path?

Well what they typically will say is "I've cried out to God, I've prayed, I've done all the right things, yet God still hasn't come through for me"; they blame God that they're still in their addiction. Now of course this could also be an excuse that they really haven't come to the place where they want to be free from their sin because they still love their sin and God is really just a scapegoat: "well God hasn't delivered me," but all along their still holding onto their sin. This mindset could be an excuse that will lead to staying in your sin. You're not repenting, you're not changing, you're actually staying in your sin and eventually, maybe, deluding yourself to think it's OK.

The other reaction if you're blaming God is, obviously, you can become angry with God, bitter toward God, even hating God or turning away from God because you've tried to turn to him and he didn't come through for you, so what other recourse do you have? "God isn't helping me, I'm going to find help somewhere else." Some men just give up and go over to their sin and live a lifestyle of perpetual sin.

You're describing a lot of different mindsets and a lot of different places that people come to but the same result: this hopelessness that comes over them for a variety of different reasons. Now I know that Pastor Steve also mentioned that, for these kinds of Christians, they'll often end up even doubting the scripture and all the promises that are there about change. We know that's wrong, but why would you say someone who claims to be a Christian could get to that place where they're convinced that the answers of scripture are just not going to work for them?

I would say a lot of it has to do with guys that have been professing to know Christ, saying they're Christians, but they've been in sin for so many years that an unbelief has settled into their hearts. A lot of them have, on some level, tried to hold on to the promises of God's Word; maybe memorized scripture, quoted scripture and stood upon it, yet they're still bound to their sin. And the reason they're bound is because they're trying to deal with the symptoms and have never really dealt with the roots.

And, ultimately, we find these guys have never really surrendered their lives to God, and they're trying to be free from their sin without really allowing God to do that work in their lives. The reason why that unbelief is there is because they've been really trying to do things themselves, and that lends itself to failure because you're not going to save yourself. I mean it's impossible for someone to free themselves from their sin.

OK so you're saying there's been something missing in their spiritual journey even if they've tried different, important steps like seeking God to a degree. Do you think they see that? Do some of them sense there's something still missing or oftentimes not?

A lot of them do but a lot of them don't. And they've been stuck for so many years and they've been living in this darkness (because you can't live in habitual sin and not at some level be in darkness) and they don't see a way out. Some of them have gone to the point where they don't really even see that they have much of a problem; they've minimized it to the point where it's one small, little problem, when actually their whole lives are in disarray.

You know it's interesting—we're kind of going on a tangent here—but, what you're saying is on the one hand they're hopeless because they feel like this is overwhelming their life, but at this very same time, you're having to deal with the fact that they're missing the rest of their life and thinking that this is the only issue that they have. How do you account for that paradox in their thinking?

There's a lot of different factors. One of them is they may not really understand what true Christianity is, and what God is really calling them to, and they've never really had that deep heart change where their whole life has been turned over to the Lord where they've experienced true repentance, true brokenness for their sin, and God has been able to revamp their life from the inside out. So all they've been doing is what our culture basically teaches us: to deal with the symptoms. And they've never dealt with the fundamental roots of their sin, which is their own pride and selfishness.

Well I know we can't get too far into this topic, but I did at least want to touch on the area of psychology since I'm sure a lot of guys come to you who are holding on to various psychological concepts. For you, where does psychological thinking fit into this topic of hopelessness.

Well, I would say psychology, as well as the other means people have used to seek freedom, actually foster hopelessness. The reason why I say that is psychology tends to promote a victim mentality—number one—"it's someone else's fault," or "you're a victim of your environment, other people." And the other thing is "once an addict, always an addict."

They may be great at identifying problems in telling you what's wrong with you, but they never deal with the root issues, and they don't offer any true solutions for lasting change. There's no hope, there's no way out; "once a sexual addict always a sexual addict." And that fosters extreme hopelessness in the end.

Any other things you want to touch on that you have found contribute to this hopelessness? Things you would point out to leaders who are listening and need to be looking for the problems that are in those they counsel.

Well one of the interesting things I've found is a lot of guys that seem to be the model example of a good Christian—have given themselves to ministry, are involved in all types of activities in church, and it seems like they're doing great spiritually—have a secret double life and they're living in sin. They justify their sin and think they're going to overcome their sin if they just throw themselves into ministry or maybe into work, but freedom still eludes them.