Most church leaders today would condemn pornography use as wrong, but are they also warning their churches about entertainment? And they would show great concern if a church member spent their time and money pursuing drugs and sex, but what if they were just obsessed with being happy?

In this episode we look at the spiritual danger of spending your life pursuing pleasure. Our 30 plus years of ministry, have revealed that the pursuit of pleasure, comfort and happiness leads many men into sexual sin. But we’ve also seen that when the lust for pleasure is overcome, sexual sin’s hold will be broken.

You may have read Psalm 54:7 before: “For he has delivered me from every trouble, and my eye has looked in triumph on my enemies.” You might look at your life and wonder why this hasn’t happened. Our culture today has been nurtured on the instantaneous. Seemingly everything is “on demand” and many Christians carry this mindset over into their spiritual battles. But even God declared that victory wasn’t going to be instant and would, in fact, be detrimental if He did it that way!

Before Joshua led God’s people over the Jordan and into enemy territory, the Lord gave the people His battle strategy. In Exodus 23:29-30, we read, “I will not drive them out before you in a single year, that the land may not become desolate and the beasts of the field become too numerous for you. I will drive them out before you little by little, until you become fruitful and take possession of the land.”

The conquest of Canaan was designed by God to be fought over a long period of time and against many enemies. The physical enemies in Joshua’s day have been replaced by a many-headed beast known as “the flesh.” The physical battle ground of Canaan has been transferred to the realm of our heart. And we wield spiritual weapons, not physical. And this war is not over in a single day, as it states in Joshua 11:18, “Joshua waged war a long time with all these kings.”

A key tactic to victory is not how fast we sprint into the fray, but how we walk. In this episode, Biblical Counselor Luke Imperato tells us how to biblically wage war through what Paul calls, “walking in the Spirit.” He describes what that looks like, our attitude as we go forward, and also gives us realistic goals in when victory will be achieved.

The Apostle Paul said that the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, but the mind set on the flesh is death. Sexual sin is not a disease; it is the fruit of a mind set on the flesh.

But there is hope, because Paul gave us a solution: "If, by The Spirit, you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." But how do we actually do this? In this episode we'll look at what it really means to set our minds on the Spirit so that our heart and lives will change.

Steve Gallagher’s book, "Standing Firm Through the Great Apostasy", paints a startling picture of the state of the American Church. In this interview, he discusses the message of the Cross and the different ways people respond to it.  

Mike: I want to just start off by asking you Steve, what your purpose was in writing this book?  

Steve: The reason this book came about was because, a few years ago, I was invited to be a keynote speaker at a biblical counseling conference. I was told that the theme of the conference was going to be, 'The Narrow Way.' And as I began studying that theme, what began to emerge was a very disturbing and frightening picture. More so than I had anticipated going into this. As I started studying, first of all what the Word of God clearly says, and secondly, what the writers of yesteryear wrote about these subjects, I realized that the reality is that many, many, many people who name the name of Christ really have never been converted. I started to see that unless something changes in their lives, they're headed into eternal damnation and that's what was so upsetting to me.  

Mike: Well Steve I know that part of the motivation of your writing this book was that there would be a wakeup call for Christians, that they would evaluate what they have, whether it's a genuine faith, a real saving faith. In the book, you're really looking at the core of Christianity: The Message of the Cross of Christ. Give us a picture, if you will, of what happened at the Cross.  

Steve: Mike, I think one of the reasons people are not more effected in their Christianity is that the Cross isn't very real to them. The reality is, we can hardly describe it in terms that befit it. It was a horrible thing, the physical abuse that He took was just terrible. It was barbaric. But there was something much deeper than that. The thing that struck horror in His heart in the garden was that, the Innocent One, the One who was pure was going to, somehow, take 6000 years of sin and crime and every despicable thing imaginable that has ever happened packaged into one bitter cup that He was forced to drink. What He recoiled at in the garden was the reality of taking that filth into His being. Actually, Paul said in 2nd Corinthians 5 that it wasn't just that He took the sin upon himself. He became sin. Now this is conjecture, but some people think that Him becoming sin was something that people could actually see. At the very least, His Heavenly Father could see, and He turned away from in disgust. But yet, this is the reality of what Scripture teaches. He took sin into His being. He had to, because He was the Sacrificial Lamb. So, what was the reality of Him taking that sin upon Himself? I don't know exactly, but it must have broken the Father's heart. "My Father, My Father, why are you forsaking me?" You know, at His time of greatest need, His father turned away from Him.  

Mike: Peter solemnly instructed us to conduct ourselves in fear. You mention that this, perhaps, was one of the reasons: Jesus having done this for us. To treat this flippantly, should be a very fearful thing.  

Steve: That was the whole point of beginning the book with the reality of what really happened at Calvary: to kind of shake us out of this flippant, nonchalant attitude about Calvary and what happened there. You know, our attitude, not everyone, but with many, is, we have developed this entitlement attitude with God as if He owes it to us. That if we said the sinner’s prayer, go to church on Sundays, that He owes Heaven to us. That attitude is in many hearts today. It's quiet and it's subtle. We don't ever really think that through, of course, but it's very subtle. And when you start to come into the reality of what God had to do to His Son, how He had to exact His wrath upon His Son, it makes you sit up and take notice and have a much greater reverential fear of what the implications of that Cross mean.  

Mike: In talking about The Message of the Cross, you started by looking at a difference between what was real in the life of Judas, and what was real in the lives of the other eleven disciples. Talk about that a bit.  

Steve: Well, we know that some months before Calvary, Jesus began to warn His disciples of what was to come. In Luke 9 He said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and be killed." He was telling the disciples what was coming. Apparently, He would remind them on different occasions because, you know, we're all kind of dumb and we forget things. And who wants to think about something like that anyway. It would have been indiscernible to you or me, but Jesus could see inside people's hearts. He could see that there was a different reaction going on in Judas's heart towards this message than there was in the other eleven.  

Mike: Even though outwardly, they looked like they were all with Him.  

Steve: Yeah, well, let's face it. On the night that Judas betrayed them, they were all asking, "Is it me?" They couldn't even figure out that it was Judas. There was nothing about Judas' life that stood out to tell them that he was a traitor. There was nothing to show he was rejecting the Message of the Cross and Christianity as it was being offered to him. He was rejecting Him, but there was nothing in His life to identify that. You and I wouldn't have seen it either. The wheat and the tare plants look identical when they're seedlings.  

Mike: You know, we hear that, but if we're in the church and we hear that, we just automatically assume we aren't the tare, even though we can't discern the difference outwardly. Because we're looking at our lives outwardly, we just automatically assume it isn't us.  

Steve: That is the purpose for this book. I had to make it so clear that any sincere person, even if they are a tare and they're sincere, but have never really looked at themselves, that they could not escape the truth.  

Mike: You mentioned in comparing Judas with the other eleven what it was that was different about him.  

Steve: Let's look at the eleven first. Now, they were immature, they were spiritual babies. You know, they were all a big mess. Thomas was depressed about everything. Peter was a loudmouth. They all had their issues and their baggage, just like we do. They were just men, but there was something in their hearts that responded in a positive way to the message of sacrifice and self-denial intertwined in the Christian message. But when Judas would hear those things, there was a different reaction inside. There was a resistance, there was a pulling away, there was a rejecting going on inside. But again, outwardly he was doing everything right. He would fit right in with today's church. That's the thing people don't understand is, they've got him made out to be some kind of a monster. But the truth is Judas would sit in the pew with us and we wouldn't think a thing of it. He's really no different than many so-called Christians that are in our churches today.  

Mike: You wrote, "The life of Judas represents those of all ages who desire the Heaven of Christ, without the Cross of Christ." You've already hinted at as to what that means. What does that mean?  

Steve: The bottom line between real Christianity and pseudo-Christianity is this: Who is on the throne of your heart? We can talk the talk, but there's a reality inside that Jesus is looking for that is the determining factor about where we're going to spend eternity.

Being needy is not a popular idea today. Our culture values self-confidence, self-reliance and self-satisfaction. Unfortunately, these values often put on a religious mask and sneak into the church in the form of religious pride.

This pride deceives many people into believing the best about themselves, even those who are enslaved to sexual sin. Today we’re going to look at how important it is to grasp our true condition before God. We’ll also explore why our attempts to be good in our own strength often prevent us from experiencing the abundant life promised to us in Jesus.

Biblical counselor Jim Lewis explains why victory over sexual addiction is contingent upon a person’s willingness to take responsibility for their sin. He outlines the different types of responses, right and wrong, and what’s really at the root in a man’s heart.  

Brooks: Ok Jim, well the idea of taking responsibility intrinsically sounds like the right thing to do, but it may not be the first thing that comes to everyone's mind when they're dealing with a serious subject like sexual addiction. So, what is the biblical basis for telling someone that's struggling with sexual sin that they need to take responsibility for their sin?  

Jim: Well Brooks, in Ezekiel 18 the Lord said, “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die." Now, that sounds a bit extreme to some, "the soul that sins shall die," but here's the point. The proverb was popular because it was an excuse for sin. People would say, "it's not my fault. I learned this sin from my father." But here, the Lord is saying that you can't blame your sin on anyone or anything else. If you sin, it's by your own choice. We are all responsible for our own actions and can’t blame anybody else. And in James Chapter 1, it says, "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone." In other words, it's not God's fault either. "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." We deal with a man's sexual sin, so this this verse is very useful. It is our own desire that causes us to give in to temptation and sin. We sin because we want to. It's that simple, and so it's no one's fault but our own.

Brooks: You know, this whole concept might strike some people as being kind of harsh. If that's a person's reaction to this, what might you say to communicate where you're really coming from with this?  

Jim: Confronting someone with their sin may seem hard and harsh, but God does it out of a heart of love and we as biblical counselors join God in confronting a man in his sin, in order to bring about godly sorrow that leads to repentance, and to real heart change, and to forgiveness, to cleansing and to reconciliation with God. It can even lead to restoration with the people that you've harmed. So, the whole point of confronting a man in sin is to do him good, and that's the most loving thing that you can do.  

Brooks: Well I know you do counsel men coming out of sexual sin. What things have you found that men tend to do instead of taking full responsibility for their sin?  

Jim: There are several common excuses that a man will choose if he refuses to take responsibility. He will usually respond in one of five ways and every one of them is demonstrated or spoken of in Scripture. The first is blame shifting. The most famous blame-shifter is Adam, who told God that the woman God had given to him gave him fruit from the tree. In other words, it was her fault and not his. A second response is to put something off until later. Paul was preaching to the Roman governor Felix, specifically about self-control, righteousness and the judgment to come. And at that point, Felix stopped him. He didn't want to hear about judgment. He told Paul to go away and come back at some other time. He was delaying taking responsibility for his own sin. Number three would be self-justification and that was what King Saul did when he was confronted by the prophet Samuel for disobeying the direct command of God. Saul had offered a sacrifice which should have been done only by the prophet, but he told Samuel, "you were delayed, and the people were leaving, so I forced myself and offered the burnt offering." In other words, "it's not my fault you were delayed. I had no other choice." There are hundreds of different ways that men justify their actions like this. Number four would be minimizing sin, trying to make the sin look smaller than it is. Again, King Saul is our example when he was confronted by Samuel for disobeying God. He spared the flocks of the Amalekites. He was told to slaughter them. And when he was confronted, he claimed that sparing them was still doing everything he was told to do. But he was clearly not being obedient. And number five is counteracting in anger. The Proverbs often speak about the reaction of the scoffer, the man who takes the things of God and treats them with contempt. Proverbs 9 says, "He who corrects a scoffer gets shame for himself, and he who rebukes a wicked man only harms himself. Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you." If a man's reaction is anger, that means he's trying to take control. He is counterattacking in anger as an excuse to avoid dealing with his own sin.  

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Brooks: Jim, where does all this ultimately come from? What's the real root issue here? Because, it seems like with these different characteristics you've described, there's got to be something at the bottom of this. And I would think if we take care of that, then people are ready to start taking responsibility.  

Jim: There's actually a simple answer to your question. All these responses are in of themselves sinful, and the root cause of all sin is pride. Self-protective pride, mostly. Pride makes us want to blame someone else. Pride makes us postpone dealing with our issues. Pride causes us to say it wasn't my fault. Pride is what makes us minimize sin. Pride is the sin behind anger and the need for control. Every bit of it is pride. And the answer is to confront men with the truth of the Word of God and trust the Holy Spirit to bring about conviction.  

Fortunately at Pure Life, we have any number of resources that describe well the sin of pride and how it leads to every other sin and how we need to take responsibility. All of our resources are based on scripture. So between our books and simply sharing the world of God, usually men begin to own their own sin.  

Brooks: Maybe we could end with a note of hope here. What can someone expect when they go through this? Oftentimes it's a painful process of taking responsibility for sin. What's down the road for them?

Jim: Well Brooks, you're right in saying that the process is painful. So, the first thing that I would say is that you can expect pain. It hurts to move past your self-deception and admit that you alone are responsible for the mess you're in. And this is often accompanied with great sorrow and loss. But then, something wonderful begins to happen. You begin to see what your sin does to the heart of God, which is doubly painful, but is also the beginning of repentance, of calling sin, ‘sin,’ and changing your mind about it. Then you'll begin to turn from it. And along with repentance, there's confession of that sin to God. When, in godly sorrow, a man confesses and truly forsakes his sin, there's forgiveness and the power of that sin is broken, and a man is finally reconciled to God. The first step towards forgiveness is taking responsibility. So, there's great hope for any man who will just step up and own what he's done.

The Bible is full of people that were called to be holy and to separate from the world around them. The author of Hebrews even declares that without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Clearly God is calling us to leave our love for this world to draw near to Him. In this episode, preacher, author, and Pure Life graduate Dustin Renz looks at this vital subject and asks this question: what is hindering us from a deeper walk with God?

Pure Life Ministries Director of Women’s Counseling, Carol Bourque, has walked with many women through their trials. And today, she offers us some helpful insights on understanding the impact sexual sin has on a wife. She clearly describes how hard it can be for wives to respond the right way—both in their relationship with their husband and in their relationship with God.  

Brooks: Carol, when the shock of the revelation of a husband's sexual sin comes out, there's got to be so much going on inside a wife as far as how she's responding to it all. I wanted to talk to you specifically about how the women you counsel respond both to God and to their husbands. So, first of all starting with the response to God, I would think there's got to be a lot of questions that come up in a woman's mind.  

Carol: Yeah, I think a woman will sometimes question why God allowed her to marry her husband if God knew what he was really like. Or, sometimes, she'll question God and say, "Well, I knew he had a little struggle before we were married, but why didn't he stop this once we got married?" I've even heard women sometimes question God's goodness - especially the ones who have kept themselves pure prior to getting married. Some of these women can actually get angry with God. If a woman's mindset has been that her husband was created to be the source of her happiness and to satisfy all of her needs, then when she is faced with her husband's unfaithfulness, she's left devastated, and usually feeling very overwhelmed and hopeless.  

Brooks: Well I know it's got to be hard to boil down all the different responses women might have in this trial. But I do want to talk about two kinds of women and the different way each might respond to this crisis. I would think that the struggle and the way it plays out in a woman's relationship with God would depend on how closely she was walking with God before this crisis hit. So first, can you tell me what it might look like for someone who hasn't been walking with God closely? Once this happens in the marriage, what kinds of things is she going through and dealing with?  

Carol: The reactions for the one who has not been walking closely with the Lord are primarily focused on herself. The focus is on how this man has ruined her life and caused her this unhappiness and grief. This woman does not see that this is a spiritual battle. All she can see is that her husband has done this to her.  

But for the woman who has an ongoing, abiding, and daily relationship with Jesus, I think it's easier for her to see who the real enemy is. After the initial shock, I think she understands that the Lord is with her in this and that she can turn to Him for what she needs to go through this painful process.  

Brooks: I can imagine that no matter how well prepared you are spiritually for this, some of the battles are just unavoidable, right? There's really no way to fully prepare for a revelation like this.  

Carol: That's true. You know I believe it's going to be devastating for the woman who is walking with the Lord and for the woman who is not walking with the Lord. But again, I think for the one who has a relationship with the Lord she is more in tune to the spiritual aspect of what's going on. She's not just focused on how this has ruined her life and herself and what she's going through. She sees that her husband is in great danger spiritually. And so, once things come into the light, I think she's able to somehow come alongside and actually help her husband in this spiritual battle.  

Brooks: Alright, let's pivot and look at how a wife is responding to all of this in relation to her husband. Again, talking in generalities might be hard because I'm sure each woman you talk to has a different kind of personality, but I want to zero in on two types of problematic responses that you've told me you've seen in the past. The first one that you've mentioned to me is that a lot of women are really focused on trying to change their husband. Can you tell me a little more what you mean by that? What does that look like?  

Carol: Well, for this woman she's determined to change him, and she usually crosses that line into trying to control him and then she begins to monitor his every move. Some of these women begin to police their husband’s every move. Or they can become a nag if they aren't seeing the results that they want.  

Brooks: You know you mention control, and I was reading the testimony of one woman recently who was talking about this kind of situation and she admitted to struggling with that very reaction. In fact, the two words I highlighted in her testimony were control and fear. You could almost reword it to be a fear of losing control. So, if that's really what's going on here, can you talk some more about how that dynamic plays into going overboard and trying to change a husband?  

Carol: For her, she lives in a constant state of fear of what he's doing or what he isn't doing. She's trying to control his every move. It reminds me of a woman I recently counseled whose husband was retired and in sexual sin and during our counseling sessions we were just talking and she told me that she did not leave her house anymore. When I asked her why, she said because she feared that if she left the house, even to go to the grocery store, the first thing her husband would do would be to run to the computer. So, this poor woman had created this self-imposed prison for herself and for her husband. Her life became based on fear and trying to control him. It was so sad when she shared that with me.  

Brooks: For wives who may be listening, Carol, you've been there. You know what this feels like. As a biblical counselor you have to point out where the flaws are in a woman's response. But I know that's not for a lack of compassion and feeling what she is going through. And you know that all of this is generated from her husband's sin, because that was your own experience. So, I know you come from that angle of understanding right?  

Carol: Fear will paralyze a woman. So yes, there is a balance. You know, I have a lot of compassion for these women and for what they're going through. But sometimes, as people, we want others to come alongside of us when something devastating happens to us and sympathize with us or even give us a little bit of pity. Our wives’ counselors definitely understand because we've all been through it. But as biblical counselors, we definitely don't want to see a wife fall into that pit of self-pity where she is being swallowed up and even possibly justifying some of her reactions to her husband because she has been sinned against. So, we have to pair that compassion with the Word of God. I remember reading in the book of Second Corinthians where it says that God is the God of mercy who comforts us in our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort which we ourselves are comforted with. And that is our job: to point these women to The Comforter.  

Brooks: Amen. Let's look at another type of woman that you have told me you have had to deal with before. Instead of the more aggressive approach of trying to change her husband all by herself, this woman would be the one who's falling into this tendency to want to appease her husband. Can you help us understand that idea a little more?  

Carol: Well, I think that this woman lives in fear as well, but her fear is of losing her husband. And that takes her to a place of - how do I say this right – possibly allowing him to have his cake and eat it too. Because this woman is so afraid of what will happen to her and to her children, she would rather stay with her husband and turn a blind eye rather than confront him and take the necessary steps to get him the help that he needs. And really, I guess I would say that this woman is more concerned about herself than about her husband's spiritual condition.

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Brooks: Well, I'm sure that this appeasing approach, again, may look different from person to person. But if I'm understanding it right, what you're saying is a wife is trying really hard to please her husband and avoid dealing with the problem of sexual sin for fear of what it's going to do. But as you've counseled people through this, what deeper issues have you had to confront when you need to change that approach?

Carol: I think there are several factors, but I'll touch on one and that is idolatry. It's trusting in something other than God to make us happy and to satisfy us or to fulfill us. I was reading in Jeremiah 17 and in verse five it says, "And thus says the Lord: 'cursed is the man who trusts in mankind and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the Lord." And that is the interesting part of the verse, "whose heart turns away from the Lord." It's just so true that when a woman goes through this kind of devastation, they kind of become so consumed with what their husbands have done to them, that they turn their hearts from God. And then they turn them back onto themselves and onto their problem and all of a sudden the problem becomes absolutely enormous and God becomes very very small. So, it's more of a trust issue I think, but the second part of Jeremiah 17 is wonderful and it’s an encouragement to women that Jeremiah talks about this. He says, "But the one who trusts in the Lord, that one will be blessed." And the passage says he, but I think we can say she, "she will be like a well-watered tree whose roots go deep and when trouble comes, she will not fear or be anxious but she will yield right unceasing fruit." And that is just such a beautiful picture to me of the woman who just completely trust in the Lord who sees that she has made her husband and her marriage an idol and she acknowledges that and she realizes that and there's a turning from that and turning to the Lord.  

In difficult and uncertain times it’s natural to run to something or someone for security—to try to avoid uncomfortable circumstances. But the Bible tells us that trials are a gift from God and that they will bring about good in our lives if we learn to put our hope in something unshakable.

In this episode of Purity for Life, Kathy Gallagher challenges us to let go of earthly distractions and to gain an eternal perspective.

The Word of God has been under attack for millennia. Many godly men went so far as to spill their own blood so that we could hear God’s Word for ourselves. But in modern times the attack against the Word of God is far more subtle and insidious.

The opponents of God’s Word aren’t burning Bibles here in America, but they are discrediting it, obstructing it, minimizing it and perverting it. This is leaving millions of people wide open to every kind of deception.

In this episode, pastor David Ravenhill exhorts us to develop a deeper relationship with the Word of God so that we will be able to discern what is true and what is dangerous to our souls.

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The task of offering counsel to a Christian leader who has fallen into sexual sin may seem very daunting. But it doesn't have to be this way. Pure Life Ministries Assistant Director of Counseling, Jordan Yoshimine, shares some of the wisdom he has gleaned from counseling pastors in sexual sin.

Brooks: All right Jordan, here at Pure Life we often have men come to us for counseling who were pastors or in full-time Christian work. I know you yourself were a church leader before you went through our Residential Program. What is it like counseling a pastor in sexual sin? Is it different than counseling anyone struggling with sexual sin?

Jordan: Actually, not really. You would think that there would be some differences in how you counsel but, Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3:4 and Psalm 14 say, "There is no one good, no not one. So we're all in the same boat, every single one of us. Every single person on this planet is sinful by nature and needs a Savior and needs Jesus to be their Lord. So, when people step into the counseling office, I just see them as another person in need to really know Jesus as Lord.  

Brooks: Ok, so you're using the Bible to give them the same truth as other men you counsel, but what are some specific challenges that come up when you're trying to counsel a leader?  

Jordan: I think the main challenge for pastors, really for anyone, but specifically for pastors or those who've been in full time Christian work for any length, is that they see themselves as Christians with a small little problem. They see their ministry work and their years or even decades of Christian service as something that they can store up and bring into the counseling office and say, "Hey, I've been a pastor for 40 years," or,  "I've been a worship leader for 10 years," or, "I've served in many different capacities." And I just take them to Galatians 5:16-21 or the parable of the sower and the seed in Matthew 13. I'll take them to John 15:2 and just help them to examine themselves and where they're at spiritually. Matthew 23 is another great example. Jesus calls out the Pharisees for being clean on the outside, but full of dead men's bones inside." So, I guess my main point is that many times the specific challenge we have with pastors is that they come in with a preconceived notion that they're somewhere they're not. They still see themselves as high-level Christians. But they haven't taken the time to really examine themselves.  

Brooks: Is it intimidating to counsel a pastor? I know you were in ministry, but what's that dynamic like.  

Jordan: Several years ago, when I started counseling, I would have said yes because I was unsure of my footing as a biblical counselor. But now, absolutely not. I don't care. If a person walks in my office I see a person in need. The Lord has put us together, ordained it and orchestrated events for us to spend 9 months together and so no I feel like it's my calling to speak truth into whoever sits a cross for me in my office.  

Brooks: Well, thinking about what you're actually telling someone coming out of ministry I want to ask simply, what do you tell them? I would think a lot of times they know the Bible and some of the things that you probably bring up, maybe even better than you do.  

Jordan: Yeah. In fact, I even use that in counseling, especially when I see they have a lot of degrees and titles behind their name. And one of the first things I ask these men is "You seem to know the Bible. You've done a lot of studying about the Word of God and yet, you're still here in this program. So, where did the Word of God and the all that knowledge get you?" I want to kind of help them see and help them really question where they really are at. That's kind of the bottom line. Those first couple weeks or months in counseling is to get them to see that they're not where they think they are spiritually. So yeah, I mean we'll just go back to scripture and go over John 15. We'll go over Matthew 23. We'll go over Romans 1. We'll go over Galatians 5 and several other passages. I just had a counseling session with a gentleman who's been in ministry for almost 2 decades and when we read those passages he started weeping. It was like he was reading that for the first time. So, it's amazing when you actually get in this setting what the Lord can do and when the Holy Spirit comes in and breathes life into the Word where before it was something this man had read and something he knew, but there was no actual application to that in his own life and in his own heart.  

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Brooks: I'm sure you've seen all kinds of reactions from pastors or leaders that you're counseling. What are some of the extremes of how people take that, when they're hearing you question where they're at and hearing you teach them things they already know. How does that go? I imagine it goes differently each time.  

Jordan: Yeah unfortunately, we can't drag people into a life with Christ or into a deeper walk or to return to their first love. We're never going to say, "You're not saved." We're going to provide the evidence in the Bible and go to Scriptures and let them decide for themselves where they're at. And at that point, some say, "No. I'm going to stay and believe what I believe and believe in my past." They're not willing to really let go and surrender all those years of service. It's unfortunate. I take them to Matthew 7, and I tell them people are going to get before Jesus - before the Lord - and before the Father and say, "Lord, Lord did we not do all these things?"  And the Lord is going to say, "Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness. Depart from Me, I never knew you." It's unfortunate that even when faced with all those Scriptures, people harden their hearts. They're exposed to so much truth in the counseling office and in our in our services and their homework. In just daily life in our Residential Program and even our Overcomers-at-Home Program their faced with truth. Unfortunately, a lot of times, people who have been in ministry just say no. They aren't willing to face reality. They aren't really willing to examine their heart. They want to stay in religion. That's the main thing. People don't want to move into a relationship with the Lord. They want to stay in the religious aspect of Christianity, which isn't Christianity at all. It's really aligning yourself with the devil. You can’t serve two masters, and if you're not in a relationship with the Lord, you could still be doing Christian things and doing all the right things like tithing or attending church, even preaching a sermon or whatever and yet, have no reality of Jesus in your life. We see many many people get stuck in religion and their own version of Christianity. They get stuck in the version of Christianity of many of today's evangelical churches. It's really sad. It really is.  

Brooks: I know someone's going to have to go through counseling to really receive the full impact of what they need if they're finding themselves stuck in ministry, but also in sin. But I did think, maybe you could end by giving us a few of the key points that you try to emphasize during the time you're working with a pastor or a leader who's come to you for help.  

Jordan: You know Brooks, it really is awesome when a pastor or a worship leader, someone who's been in ministry or has been a missionary really comes to the foot of the Cross in complete submission to the Father, surrendering his will to the Lordship of Christ and coming into saving faith. Because, when that happens, there is something beautiful. It's like a transaction takes place in in the heavenlies, where a man trades religion in for a relationship like I was talking about. And then, when we talk about the things of the Lord, and we talk about the future or just their life in Christ, it is amazing to see that they just want Jesus and it's just about Jesus. It becomes just about being in a relationship with Jesus. And many of these men that come in are married and have kids, and they begin to see the value and the need of what God's really calling them to. First, they're called to be the spiritual leader in their home. When they come into that relationship with Christ, many times that's where I focus a lot of my attention. Especially with those who are married or are even divorced and have kids. I really work and focus on Ephesians 5:25-31: serving their wife and loving their wife and leading their wife, preparing her to be the pure and spotless bride of Christ. And then ministry, that just kind of sits on the back burner. You know, a pastor or worship leader should not go directly back into ministry. So, my focus is always on the marriage. If their single, then we focus on being a dispenser of God's mercy to their family and to those whose lives they've devastated, into really sowing seeds of faith and love back into those they've hurt. So, it's definitely not directing them back to ministry. It's leading them into a relationship with the Lord. If they're married, definitely into being the priest of their home.

We all know the physical principle of cause and effect. Our natural actions on earth always have a natural result.

But we often forget that this applies to spiritual things as well. We think of obedience to God in terms of a list of rules…do’s and don’t’s, failing to remember that when God tells us to obey Him, He’s inviting us into a life where we reap a wonderful spiritual harvest.

In this episode we are going to talk about "A Lifestyle of Obedience is a Lifestyle of Blessing."