According to modern church culture, to be saved means that you believe some doctrines and go to church. But according to Scripture, to be saved means that your life has been revolutionized from the inside out so that you love and obey God from the heart.

Host: Steve Gallagher has joined me in the studio. Steve is the founder of Pure Life Ministries. Steve, it’s great to see you again. Thanks for coming in.

Steve: It's good to be with you.

Host: Steve, as we continue our discussions in your book “Standing Firm Through the Great Apostasy,” we want to talk today about Chapter 4: The Evidence of Faith. You said in the beginning of this chapter that for many years you thought the greatest problem in the Church today was a lack of discipleship, but you changed your perspective on that.

Steve: Yeah, I had a revelation one day. It occurred to me that the problem isn't a lack of discipleship. The problem is that pastors are killing themselves trying to disciple unconverted people into the Christian life. And that’s just not possible.

Host: You know, one of the problems we see in our churches today is that there is a salvation experience taught that really is nothing more than an intellectual assent to the historic Jesus. You make the point in your book that there should be some particular evidence of saving faith in the life of someone who has truly been converted. So, today we want to talk about the different evidences we should see. One of the first things that you brought up was a childlikeness. Talk a little bit about what you mean by that.

Steve: Well, that comes from Matthew 18, where Jesus makes the very clear statement, “Unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 18:3b, NASB 1995) That's pretty cut and dry. There is something about childlikeness that Jesus is saying is required for this entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and really the most pronounced quality of a child is their utter dependence upon their parents for life. That is the one quality about a child that stands out more than any other thing. They completely depend upon their parents for the sustenance of life.

Host: Now then, relate that to the individual believer. When someone comes into true faith, what are they shifting their dependence from and to?

Steve: They're shifting their dependence from self to God. That's the bottom line. A person with a spurious faith can believe all the right doctrines and have all the proper understanding of biblical teachings, but they have never transferred their true trust from themselves to God.

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Host: Steve, you also said that faith is proven by change in this chapter. And I know that in the Church in America, this is argued all the time. The question that arises a lot is, “Can I really have a true saving faith without having a changed life?”

Steve: Well, people tend to look at change as a change in their worldview. They've gone from a Pagan worldview to a maybe some kind of right-wing, Christian worldview. That's a mental change. A heart change is something different because a person’s perspectives, their values, everything changes. Not just in their belief system, but in the way they actually live their lives. And that change is reflected in a process which the Bible calls sanctification.

Host: Now, the great danger here that you point out is that someone can be in church and just naturally take on the characteristics of the people around them. But that heart change that you're talking about may never have taken place.

Steve: Yeah, because in the evangelical realm, there is a certain way of doing life. You're nice to each other. You don't cuss. You don’t pull out a cigarette and light it up in your pew. There are just certain unspoken rules that govern evangelical life. So you can basically fit yourself into that culture without having had an inward change of heart.

Host: When you think about it, the difference really is the motivation for changing. We're not changing because we're trying to keep some set of rules. We're changing out of our love for the Lord and our gratitude for what He's done for us. That kind of change is evidence of true faith.

Steve: And that kind of change is evidence that the Spirit of the living God is indwelling your heart, because we don't have it in our flesh to want to please God. We can have it in our flesh to want to obey rules and to want to fit in with the church culture we’re in. Or even to want to not stand out in the crowd, but we don't have it in ourselves to love God. Only the Spirit living in us can compel us to do that.

Host: And that really leads us to our next point, which is that faith is proven by obedience.

Steve: Yeah. And the point I made in the book, basically if I could sum it up this way is that in the dark ages, the pendulum had swung way over to the side of works. The Catholic Church had instituted a system of rules and rituals to earn your salvation by penance and obeying tradition. Then Martin Luther came along stood against salvation by works. And so, the protestant movement took on that mantra—and rightly so. But we've gone now to the other extreme. It was actually Martin Luther who coined a term that is so appropriate to what the Church is facing today.
       The term is “antinomianism”. “Anti” means against, and “nomos” is the law. So, those who embrace antinomianism are people who do not want to be constrained by biblical commandments. So, the opposite extreme of what the Catholics were pushing in the Dark Ages has become what we are facing in the church of the 21st century, which is the throwing off of all restraints put upon our lives and this feeling like we don't have to obey God. And the idea is that we should obey God for the most part, but we’re saved not by works but by faith. So, because of that fact, it really doesn't matter what we do.

Host: And yet that cuts so dramatically against what Jesus Himself said was evidence of love for Him.

Steve: Well, it's throughout all of Jesus’ teachings. He could not be clearer in saying that if you love me, you will obey my commandments.

Host: Yes, Amen. The last evidence that you gave is that you talked about the evidence of faith being proven by a person’s fruit.

Steve: Well again, I can refer directly to the words of Jesus. This is coming out of John 15, “He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5b, NASB 1995) And He goes on to say, “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” (John 15:6, NASB 1995) And it is said in various other ways throughout the New Testament that fruit bearing is evidence of one’s faith.

Host: Steve, as you closed this chapter you shared the story of a man named Robert who came into the Pure Life Ministries Residential Program. That might be a great way to end this discussion today. Tell us that story.

Steve: Well, Robert is like a son to me. Robert came to us, having grown up in an evangelical church and by the time he came to us, he had just attempted suicide. He was on several psychotropic drugs. He weighed 500 lbs. He was in uncontrolled homosexual behavior. And when he went and confessed to his pastor about all his struggles, his pastor's solution was to make him a Deacon of the church. And that threw him into more hopelessness and despair, which is actually when he tried committing suicide. So, then somehow he found out about Pure Life and when he came to us, it would be hard to have found a more hopeless person than Robert walking this campus. And yet, because there was something inside him, a sincere desire to really have the Lord, Robert started responding to the Holy Spirit. And little by little, God started transforming his inward life. And pretty soon the pounds were flying off of him. He lost 200 lbs. while he was in the program. And you know, Robert’s life is a glowing testimony of someone who obeyed God and the fruit that will come out of that obedience.

Host: And we see that replicated in many of the lives of men who come to us, and we see it throughout the true Church of God. Where there is true faith, we see real evidence of genuine faith in their lives.

Steve: I see it all over America. You see people who have really come to the Lord. They just stand out and it's such a blessing.

Most of the men who come to us for help have already taken a lot of steps to break free from sexual sin, but nothing has changed. This clearly shows it's not enough to take steps to find freedom. You’ve got to take the right steps. In this "Ask the Counselor" episode, we'll provide a biblical response to the question, "What's the first step to breaking free from sexual sin?"

Resources

• At the Altar of Sexual Idolatry (Book) By Steve Gallagher
• Check Out Our Residential Program

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In the 8th message of our “Unveiling Yahweh” series, we will be learning about God's name as Jireh.

This week, Dustin Renz walks through Genesis 22: God’s testing of Abraham. Through this narrative, we see Abraham’s strong faith that God would be true to His covenant. And through it, we also see the powerful truth that in our need, Yahweh will see to it.

Should Christians watch movies or TV shows that contain inappropriate innuendos or sex scenes? In this episode, we’ll give you a straightforward response to that question, but we’ll also take a deeper look at what the Bible teaches about a more foundational issue: our interactions with the world.

Resources

• At the Altar of Sexual Idolatry (Book) by Steve Gallagher

In the 7th message of our “Unveiling Yahweh” series, we will be learning about the Voice of God.

The way God speaks to us has become a divisive topic due to misuse in some circles. Yet the vital importance of understanding how to hear God in our lives hasn’t changed. This week, Steve Gallagher expounds on the truth about the Voice of God.

We’ve had many parents ask us, “What can I do to help my child overcome sexual sin?” But this question begs a deeper one: what is the role of a parent? To help us answer this, we sit down with biblical counselor Mark Shaw who reflects on two decades of counseling and raising four children of his own.

Resources

• "For Parents" (Podcast Series) By Pure Life Ministries

In the 6th messageof our "Unveiling Yahweh" series, we will be looking at the Wrath ofGod.

This attribute of God, perhaps more than any other, can be hard to swallow. Many Christians choose to deemphasize the reality of God’s wrath and over emphasize His love and mercy. Yet the truth is that God’s wrath and His mercy are displayed with equal importance and clarity in Scripture. Both are part of who He is, and both are needful for us to know if we are to walk rightly before Him.

Thanksgiving—it's the time of year when we're encouraged to be grateful for the blessings in our lives. But when things get difficult, what should our attitude be? In this special Thanksgiving episode, we'll talk with three of our staff members who decided to fight for gratitude in the hard seasons.

Many people in today's Christian culture claim to be worshipers of God. But true worship is only revealed through a life of obedience. In this Timeless Truths segment, Jeff Colón contrasts the lives of Abraham and King Saul, urging us to reflect on whether our own worship resembles Abraham's wholehearted obedience or King Saul's partial and insincere devotion.

Host: Jeff, we want to continue in our discussion in this series, “Worshiping God,” and one of the things we've lost about the reality of worship, especially in the Evangelical Church in America, is obedience to God. And we learn a lot about that in the story of Noah. Let's talk about that.

Jeff: Yeah. A lot of times we do think of worship in the sense of being in a worship service where people are praising God and singing songs. But really it involves our whole life. We see that in the life of Noah and just how he walked with God.

Host: Scripture tells us that he found favor in the eyes of God. Why was that?

Jeff: Well, it says he found favor in the eyes of the Lord because he walked with God. This means that he was obedient. His life was led by the Lord, and it pleased God to find someone that was willing to let Him order their steps and lead their life. And God can do a lot with someone that's willing to do that.

Host: Jeff, as we talk about obedience, one of the phrases that I heard many years ago was that partial obedience is not obedience, and we see more in Noah than just partial obedience.

Jeff: Yeah, and it really does tie in with worship as we'll see later in the life of Abraham as well. But Noah heeded what God said, and he did all that God commanded of him. Contrast that with King Saul who we see had partial obedience. He was instructed to totally wipe out the Amalekites and leave no one living and to take no spoils, but he only partially obeyed. Then, when the Samuel the prophet confronted him, he said, “God doesn't delight in sacrifice and offering, but in obedience.” That's what God was after. Him doing everything He had told him to do.

Host: Yeah. I know that's something that God continually impresses on me. Not only that God is not interested so much in the sacrifice, but that He's interested in obedience out of our heart. In other words, if you're in ministry, He's less concerned about the ministry work you do and more concerned about the heart that that work comes from. And that may seem like an extreme statement, that God is asking for our full obedience. Many may think, “God is just asking me to go to church on Sunday and for me not to drink or smoke or do drugs.” But really, he wants the totality of our hearts to be given to Him. And that's what we see in Noah.

Jeff: Yeah. If you think about it, if we only obey God part of the time, what are we really saying? We’re saying that we'll obey God when it doesn't interfere with what we really want to do. That's not walking with God as Noah did.

Host: Yeah, it just came to mind that Jesus said, “There will be those on that day who will say, Lord Lord.” And they'll list all the religious things they did, but He really wasn't their Lord. Because they were only doing a few religious things that looked good to other people. But in their hearts, He wasn't the Lord of their life.

Jeff: Right. And we're not talking about perfection here and that you have to do everything perfect, but there should be a general consensus in your life that your life is ordered by the Word of God, even though at times you might miss the mark. But you see it, you repent of it and you're always coming back to the Word of God.

Host: Yes. You know, sometimes in counseling, you'll mention something to someone, and you see the look on their face. It's like, “You're kidding. God would ask me to do that?!” It may be something as simple as giving up a pet hobby or something that's getting in the way of their relationship with the Lord. But we see this kind of dramatic call in the life of Abraham.

Jeff: Yeah, that is so true. To me, it really is a picture of what true worship is, because when you think about Abraham when the Lord told him to offer up his son as a sacrifice, he said to his servant, “We are going to the mountain to worship.” We're talking about him going to sacrifice his son.

Host: But not only his son, it was the promise. It was God’s promise for his future.

Jeff: It was the promise. It was everything he relied on to fulfill God's word to him. Yet it had become something that he was trusting in rather than God and God required it of him. And again, we see what's at the core of worship. Are we really looking to God or are we trusting in something else? Yet we see that he was obedient.

Host: Yea. And one of the wonderful things that comes out of this study is that God requires us to worship, and yet he gives the provision for us to worship. It's just wonderful how God does that for us. Every time I look over the years at how God has intervened in my life to bring me into His presence and to bring me to a place where I can worship Him, gratitude just wells up. And a grateful heart is part of worshiping God too. How important is that?

Jeff: I'm reminded of Romans 1:21, where it says, “They did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful.” That led to worshiping the creation rather than the Creator. That’s what happened to Adam and Eve. The serpent deceived them into believing that God isn't good. And when we lose sight of that, it really does lead us away from worshiping God the way we ought to with our lives. And we're commanded in Scripture to be thankful in all things.

Host: You know, in line with that Jeff, before the Tabernacle came about even, every time God did something for His people, He instructed them to make an altar. And they had altars for that reason, didn’t they?

Jeff: Yeah. It was a place where they could remember that mercy. And for us it points to Christ and not losing sight of what Jesus has done for us. And that really is the basis for our gratitude.

Host: Yeah. In fact, in the study we were looking at, they mentioned that those alters really were a type for the Cross. It was a picture of the sacrifice to come.

Jeff: For me, it doesn't take much reflection on what Jesus has done for me to stir a grateful heart inside of me. When I take time to express gratitude to the Lord, it's an act of worship to Him.

Host: Yes. I remember when I came into the Residential Program here at Pure Life, it was difficult for me. And no big surprise that when we're living a life of sin and self-will, we don't have a heart of gratitude. But as God begins to cleanse you and purge you of your idols and begins to open your eyes again, you realize that He's done so much for you and continues to do so much for you.
       Well, Jeff, as we close this discussion today, let's kind of tie it up with something that I think we need to touch on that we can learn from. And that is the obedience of Noah and also the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son.

Jeff: Well, what we learned is that there's a cost in our worship with the Lord, yet He saved Noah and His family. He opened the way of blessing for Abraham. So, it brings a blessing with it when we obey the Lord and we worship Him in that way. And then we have reason to be grateful. And it all ties together. It really is a wonderful cycle if I could say it that way that just continually enhances our worship and actually makes us want to worship Him more with our lives.

Host: And it of course ultimately points to the greatest cost ever paid and that was the sacrifice of Jesus, which is our greatest reason to be grateful and to worship.

In the 5th message of our Unveiling Yahweh series, we will be looking at the Faithfulness of God.

Our lives can be full of circumstances and people which will let us down. This is inevitable in a fallen world. But God, who is not like us, is good, unchanging and perfect. He is a Being fully worthy of our trust, because His character, and His track record, prove that He is faithful.

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Compared to most of the world, Americans have greater opportunities for wealth and a pleasurable life. But in light of biblical warnings about riches, how should Christian couples view the American Dream? In the final episode of "On the Same Team," PLM graduates Stephen and Jubilee Howell talk about how their pursuit of the American Dream nearly led to their ruin, but how God gave them a new vision centered on building His Kingdom.

Jesus warned that on Judgment Day, He would tell many that He "never knew them” because, although they performed religious actions in His name, they were harboring iniquity in their hearts. In today’s Timeless Truths, we’ll discuss why repentance and intimacy with Christ will prepare us to stand before God.

Host: Counselor Bill Lucas has joined Kathy Gallagher and I in the studio today. Bill, it's good to see you. Thanks for coming in.

Bill: Thank you for having me.

Host: We want to talk today about the lifestyle and attitude of repentance. We're going to begin by taking a look at three types of individuals described in Scripture that do not reflect an attitude of repentance. Those types are false teachers, those who have never repented, and the self-righteous. Let's start with false teachers. How do we recognize them and how do we recognize that they in fact are not walking in a life of repentance?

Bill: Well, Jesus talks about this in Matthew. “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” (Matthew 7:15-21, NASB 1995) Just looking at this Scripture, it wakes me up to see that it's not about what you're doing so much on the outward, but it is an inward call. The inside is very important, and that's what I believe Jesus is trying to wake us up to.

Kathy: Yea, they are teachers, and they are in front of a crowd of people. They're leading people. But the thing that Jesus sees is what's going on in the inside. The motivation of the heart. That's what He's looking at.

Host: So, these false teachers are in the Church and they look like other believers in a lot of ways?

Bill: Correct. The false prophet is one who is mainly being governed by their own evil lust. The Bible talks a little bit about this in Romans. It says that they are like slaves of their own appetites and they deceive unsuspecting people.

Host: What does Scripture indicate motivates false teachers?

Bill: Well, anyone that you would think of that's promoting their own agenda. They're doing it for a profit or it's a trade of theirs to a degree. They're trying to promote their own kingdom. They're building a kingdom of their own rather than building up the Kingdom of God.

Host: Sounds like a politician giving the people what their itching ears want to hear. They’ll say whatever will make the people happy to get elected.

Bill: Interestingly yes, there are those similarities.

Host: Well, now let's talk about those who have never truly repented. I know that there are a lot of individuals in the church who surround themselves with a cloak of Christianity. They may go to church. They may listen to Christian radio programs. They may read Christian books. But the Bible does speak very clearly about who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and it's not describing those who are just doing these outward things.

Bill: That's right. Of course, the Bible is very clear about who does get to come into Heaven, and that is repeatedly said to be the one that does the will of the Father. And Romans 12:1-2 is very clear to me. It says, “Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.” (Romans 12:1-2, NASB 1995)
       And I just look at the idea of repentance. When you are convicted by the Holy Spirit, there is a change that occurs in you. It must happen and it's not something that is adaptable with the world system. You have to begin to go in a completely different direction from where the world system is leading you.

Host: But on the other hand, Jesus talks about those that do not appear to have adapted to the world system, but in fact seem on the outside to have adapted to the religious system. And He talks about those in that camp that surely will end up in hell. Talk to us a little bit about Jesus's admonition about that.

Bill: Yes, outwardly there is an element of Christianity in those people Jesus is talking about, but He is looking at their heart. And for those that have never truly repented, there's an element of wickedness remaining in their heart. 2 Timothy, 2:19 says, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19, NKJV) Again, in Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.” (Psalm 5:5, NKJV) And I believe that the people that don't truly repent have iniquity in their heart. Jesus said that he will tell those that prophesied in His name, cast out demons and performed miracles, “I never knew you, depart from me you workers of iniquity.” So, iniquity is still dwelling in their heart that they've never truly repented of.

Kathy: These people that Jesus was speaking of, they were in the Church. They were casting out demons. They were doing many mighty works. And yet Jesus said, “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you.” That's a scary thing, because I think that there are a lot of people doing a lot of churchy stuff who do not know Jesus Christ and have never been born from above. They've joined the church, they've acclimated to the system, but there's a difference between joining the Church and being born into the Church. And I think we see now in our day, a lot of people that are doing a lot of outward things, but there is no real union with Christ.

Host: And there's no real fruit of repentance in their life.

Kathy: Yes. There's no fruit. And outward works don’t equal fruit. That's not what fruit is. Fruit is what is coming out of your life. It's born of the Holy Spirit. It's your life spilling over into the lives of other people and people are coming into the Kingdom as a result of that fruit in your life.

Host: Okay, well we've talked about the false teacher. We've talked about those who have never truly repented. What about the self-righteous? Jesus talked to the Pharisees about self-righteousness.

Bill: Jesus said that your righteousness must surpass that of the Scribes and Pharisees, or you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Righteousness is the lack of iniquity. And a repentant heart is one that has departed from iniquity. The truly repentant person, and the one that is not a self-righteous person, is low in heart and humble and willing to acknowledge their lack. They're willing to see their need for God.

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Kathy: It’s spiritual poverty, which is what the Pharisees didn't have. Their righteousness was outward, and that's what the self-righteous do. They prop themselves up on the things that they do, their outward works and the way they even look. If they can appear righteous to people, then they consider that Christianity. But Jesus said it goes way beyond that. It's the heart that God is looking at. And when He said that your righteousness must surpass that outward ability to look like a Christian, He was highlighting that it's a heart issue.

Bill: Right. The Pharisees were law-keepers. But Jesus came into the world and started representing the idea of an inward life. It's an element of faith that is being missed in our churches today that people need to just acknowledge their need for God in faith and start looking not so much at the outward but start looking at the true motives of their own heart. It’s very real to me that my character is established when I'm all alone, or when no one else is around and that tells me something.

Host: Amen. Let's end this discussion by talking about what the outcome of a lifestyle of repentance is and kind of break it into the negative and the positive. What are some of the negative things from a human perspective that we might experience if we're walking out this kind of life?

Bill: The word that comes to mind is persecuted. You'll be persecuted for being extreme or overzealous. When it comes to following hard after Jesus, one thing I've learned is that it's hard. Jesus throughout the New Testament seemed to make it very clear that there is going to be affliction, there is going to be persecution and there are going to be tough times for those who choose to live out a righteous life. But Jesus says to endure to the end.
       I've got to keep looking at the fact that Jesus, when He talks about true Christianity and denial of self, says that He's going to give us what we need as long as we endure to the end. It doesn't always feel good. It doesn't always seem to be the most popular thing to be doing. But I know one thing, I'm not going to quit. And God is getting the glory from my life as long as I don't quit this walk of righteousness.

Host: Well, and that of course is part of what we want to end up on here and that is that there is a tremendous reward. There is a positive side to living this kind of lifestyle.

Bill: Jesus says in Matthew 5:12, “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in Heaven is great.” (Matthew 5:12a, NASB 1995) And I know that there is a peace and joy that reaches beyond the tentacles of this present world.

Host: Yes, and there is great joy in that.